012 - Epic Frugality how to save 75 percent of take home pay

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1 - 15 Jonathan Mendonsa WelcomeTo the choose F-I radio podcast. So today we're in the studio. Brad is here with me today and we have our first guest today. Can't believe it. And. We have the Liz from Frugal Woods.
15 - 20 Liz - Mrs. Frugalwoods Hello I'm so happy to be here. I did not know I was the first.
20 - 118 Jonathan Mendonsa The Absolute first guest. We've been teeing this up for a while now so we're super excited to have you today. All right. Real quick let me just talk a little bit about what the goal is today. We're going to be talking to Liz specifically about luxurious frugality or epic frugality depending on how you want to look at it. And the idea behind what we're doing is in this world that we live in you know we kind of think about the way to achieve financial independence as having four pseudo distinct silos. One of them is using minimalism or frugality to achieve your goals and then you have real estate or creating passive businesses. One of those if you have a really good job or a high paying job is really focusing on the tax efficiency component of it. And then lastly investing. But today we're focusing on minimalism and frugality. And honestly you know some people are just frugal for frugal sake but we think that everybody everybody, Mainstream America, middle class America, everybody would benefit just from thinking about minimalism and frugality and figuring out how they can incorporate just a few life hacks in their life because once you get the baseline for your cost of living under control it gives you so much flexibility with what you can do and Liz has been creating amazing content on Frugalwoods.com. And she just released a uber frugal month challenge which had over 10000 subscribers sign up to it so she is just becoming a an absolute influencer in this space. She has some amazing content. She has two years worth of content and today we're going to dig through just a few of those articles to really come away with some great actionable tips that you can use as you pursue financial independence. Liz thank you so much for joining us today.
frugality, highincome, hustle, lifeoptimization, passiveincome, tax
118 - 120 Liz - Mrs. Frugalwoods Oh it's my pleasure. Thank you for having me.
120 - 136 Jonathan Mendonsa Absolutely. So what we decided to do we couldn't First of all when we were looking at you some of your stuff from back in 2014 we started with one of your articles and it was talking about how you save up to 65 percent of your. Is that your take home pay. Or is that it.
136 - 137 Liz - Mrs. Frugalwoods Yes.
137 - 139 Jonathan Mendonsa And I think it's even higher than that now. Is that right.
140 - 147 Liz - Mrs. Frugalwoods That's correct. Yes that's our take home. And it really peaked at around 82 percent and levelled off.
147 - 148 Jonathan Mendonsa That's amazing.
148 - 151 Liz - Mrs. Frugalwoods You know leveled off around 70 72 percent (savings rate of take home pay).
151 - 154 Jonathan Mendonsa OK. So you decided to just relax a little bit.
154 - 161 Liz - Mrs. Frugalwoods We did actually we did. And that's actually an element of frugality being sustainable for the long term.
161 - 172 Jonathan Mendonsa You know I think what's so funny about that is when you have your average you know middle class American go in and talk to their financial adviser the financial advisers usually trying to convince them to save 4 percent.
172 - 173 Liz - Mrs. Frugalwoods Right.
173 - 174 Brad Barrett 10 percent.
174 - 178 Liz - Mrs. Frugalwoods You know if you save 10 percent that's sort of considered to be nice for me.
178 - 180 Jonathan Mendonsa I've got to be crazy.
180 - 190 Brad Barrett So Liz was it a actual conscious decision to dial it back to the mid-70s I guess. A That's a question and B. What specific things that you do to change that.
190 - 249 Liz - Mrs. Frugalwoods Yes. So my husband and I decided in March 2014, it was a very specific conversation that we wanted to pursue something different in life. We had been living fairly frugally. we were living in Boston. we bought a home a couple of years prior, which we planned to turn into a rental which is now a rental. And what we came to realize is that we wanted to pursue a radically different lifestyle, and in order to do that we needed to have more money and so we started to enact what we called Extreme Frugality. In our first month we cut out absolutely everything that we possibly could. And so that's what my uber-frugal month challenge that you mentioned earlier takes you through. So it took me three years to actually put it together as a challenge, but it is now a challenge. You can you can take it through my site and it tracks the steps that my husband Nate and I took in order to get to that 80 percent savings rate.
frugality, savings
249 - 268 Jonathan Mendonsa I think it's really cool. And one of the things I just thought of when you're saying that one of the things I was expecting is you're going to tell me you live in this little Or at least that you did you lived in this super cheap city or a place where you live in Boston. So all the excuses that probably immediately come to someone's mind oh I love a really expensive city I can't I can't do that. You live in Boston.
269 - 301 Liz - Mrs. Frugalwoods Yes. So the top two excuses that are I hear are but I live in an expensive city. And but I have kids. And to that I say as do I. Right well I no longer live in an expensive city but I've lived in New York City, Washington D.C., and Boston and I have a child and it's entirely possible to embrace frugality no matter where you live. Now your degree of savings is going to be different and it's going to depend heavily on how much you're making and what your long term goals are. But it's entirely possible to be frugal anywhere along the spectrum.
frugality, savings
301 - 317 Brad Barrett And. That's one of the neatest things I think I've ever read that you wrote was not only is it possible to be frugal in a city but you would argue it's actually easier on some levels right because there is a cornucopia of things going on on any given day in a city as opposed to some random rural area is.
317 - 341 Liz - Mrs. Frugalwoods Absolutely although I now live in a random rural area. I mean I we live in the middle of nowhere and there is so much happening here. We have to consciously stay home in order to like get chores done around the farm because there's so much going on so to that I say ...there are people who are engaged in their community anywhere and you can find free entertainment and free things to do anywhere. I'm absolutely convinced. New York City or rural Vermont where I am now.
341 - 345 Brad Barrett Nice. OK I didn't mean to throw rural America under the bus there certainly.
345 - 348 Liz - Mrs. Frugalwoods But we in rural America but you know there's a lot to do.
348 - 349 Brad Barrett I hear that.
349 - 366 Jonathan Mendonsa All right. So why don't we just talk a little bit about what is the difference between someone that has a negative 2 percent savings rate and someone that has a 75 percent savings rate. I mean how are you trading that much space between what your actual cost of living is and what your expenses are you have a crazy high income.
366 - 423 Liz - Mrs. Frugalwoods So no, the principle thing is actually not about money. It's about what you want out of life. And I know that sounds, you know a little bit vague but stay with me for a minute. When you have decided where you want to be in 10 years in 20 years in 30 years it suddenly becomes very easy to line your finances up and to realize how much you're going to need to save in order to facilitate that lifestyle. I think for most of us we probably don't sit down at 22 and think oh you know what I really want to do is slog through a number of jobs that I only minorly really care about until I'm 65 and then retire. We don't consciously sit down and map out our lives in that way. So what I encourage people to do, before you even look at your spending. Think about what you want. Where do you want to be. Do you want to have children. Do you want to travel. Where do you want to live. Map out that ideal situation and then start looking at your finances.
travel, valuist
423 - 454 Jonathan Mendonsa I love that essentially what you're saying is design your life. And I think that that's that's that's essential I think what you're making essentially when you do that is a value choice. You're essentially deciding you know I can have everything now I can have the golf club membership now I can you know spend all this money now have the nice two nice cars with the car payments now or I can sacrifice the next five or 10 years. And I will buy myself freedom for the next 10 or 20 years so it's a value choice.
454 - 582 Liz - Mrs. Frugalwoods It is. And you know the caveat that I would have to what you said is that it's not necessarily a sacrifice. It's more of a reorientation of how you're spending and it's an empahsis on delayed gratification. So you know I didn't set out and say you know I want to be super miserable and never spend any money. Now you know I set out saying I want to move to a large homestead in rural Vermont and I want to rent out my city home and I want to quit my day job and have kids and have you know and have all these other things. And so to me it was not a question about a sacrifice you know when frugality is reaching your goals it's not about at all about what you're giving out that's entirely about what you're gaining. And what I would say too is that there are different stages of frugality. You know the first month that my husband did this it was a little bit painful because we aren't going out to eat. we weren't going out for coffee or drinks all the fun stuff you do in the city. And I thought this is like not easy. And but what we came to realize over the coming months is As frugality becomes a chosen lifestyle it becomes joyful. And that sounds absurd. I know I know. But when you have unlocked the magic of being content and being happy with simple things in life you're creating, you're setting yourself up for success over and over again. Because when you can be joyful just with looking forward to a regular Tuesday. You are a vastly happier person than if you're only looking forward to that treat on Friday night of going out. So it's a really a wholesale restructuring of where you find joy in life and what creates a meaningful life for you. And I think for most of us if we're asked you know what's most important in your life. We're probably not going to say material possessions. We're not going to say our car or our shoes. We're going to say Oh it's my family it's when we get to spend time together. And so what, you know what frugality challenges you to do is to put those things at the forefront put the time together with your family at the forefront and let everything else fall away.
families, frugality
582 - 636 Jonathan Mendonsa You're obviously speaking to a friendly audience here at least with Brad and myself in that Brad identifies 100 percent and I'm on that place where I am not naturally frugal. I am a spender. I'm just if you have two people in the family I'm the spender my wife is the more naturally frugal. But because I've used this term before I'm a reluctant frugal list I get the math and I understand the power of it. What originally did appear to me as a sacrifice not having that golf membership. How quickly it just becomes the normal and it doesn't feel like a sacrifice anymore and the freedom I get from not making some of those big purchasing decisions that I would have made in the past. To me it's incredible and I would never trade it. And so I understand exactly what you're seeing. I can see how you take one step and then you take another step and then you take another step and you look back and you wonder how you could have made all those really stupid decisions in the past because you're so extraordinarily happy with where you're at at that moment.
636 - 699 Liz - Mrs. Frugalwoods Absolutely. And I also encourage people you know don't borate yourself. You did what you did in the past. Just move forward. You know there's there's no value to be had in being concerned. I know people who kind of add up in some of total Oh I could have saved all this money over the years and I'm like well but it doesn't matter. So move forward you know and just enact that feeling going forward. So when my husband and I started on this very specific day you know in March 2014 we never looked back. We never said well let's wait until next week because you know this weekend we have plans. We actually cancelled our plans for that night and just started right away so it's starting now. Don't look back and put yourself on a path to strategically and decisively pursue your dreams. I hear from some folks who are like oh I quit my job. This is great. And like. What is your plan. So I'm not one for throwing caution to the wind but I am one for taking that strategic decisive action and being very deliberate in the decisions that you make with spending and also with your career.
699 - 716 Brad Barrett Liz I'm so interested to March 2014 you know essentially you're describing it as pulling a Band-Aid off right. You're changing your life. Wholesale. Talk us through that that month. I've never asked you this before we met in person but but I'm so curious what happened in that first one to three months.
716 - 809 Liz - Mrs. Frugalwoods Sure. So the first thing I have to share is that my husband I have always been pretty frugal. We were able to buy a home in Cambridge which is one of the most expensive real estate markets in the country when we were 27. So that gives you an indication we had been saving furiously for that down payment since we were 23 so we had always been frugal but not to the level that we needed to be in order to get to financial independence because we have both always worked for nonprofit and mission based organizations. And so our salaries are were good very good but not at the level of an investment banker or something along those lines. So in that first month we really started to examine our expenses holistically and strange as it sounds we had never sat down and looked through how much we were spending every month which is now to me just seems ridiculous that we've never thought to do that. But a lot of people don't you don't spend money it's fine it comes and it goes out you know. So what I encourage people to do after you've made that that goal setting decision and had that goal setting conversation with your partner if you have a partner. Track your expenses, you know in a very real way not just like oh I think I spend X because if you estimate you will always underestimate I still under estimate every single month I publish my expenses on the blog. And I'm always shocked and like oh we spend that much how could that be. My husband's like um you spent this money. How do you not know.
809 - 810 Jonathan Mendonsa It's pretty simple.
810 - 825 Liz - Mrs. Frugalwoods Yeah. He's like um it's right here I'm like that's impossible I couldn't that you know and it's so I think we have a tendency as humans to underestimate ourselves you know we always think we weigh less. We always think we spend less. We always think we're taller so.
825 - 828 Jonathan Mendonsa You know just give myself that extra half inch every time.
828 - 907 Liz - Mrs. Frugalwoods Always we all do so don't trust yourself of these assumptions and just use an expense tracker so use personal capital that's what I like or use mint. Use a spreadsheet. I really don't care what you use. And look at exactly how much what you're spending. And then from that Nate and I categorized our expenses so what's fixed and mandatory, and then what's discretionary? and what I call fixed mandatory are things that can't be changed easily, so things like your mortgage or your rent, if you have student loan payments. Those are things that can't be changed easily. Everything else, groceries that's all discretionary. So anything we have any flexibility over the dollar amount groceries included. That's where the work can be done. So we started with those discretionary expenses and went down one by one and figured out what can we just totally eliminate. So in other words what do you not need for your survival. We did not need restaurants. We did not need bars. We did not need coffee shops for our survival so those all went immediately. This is a good time to evaluate all of your subscriptions. So anything that is to you on a repeated basis that you are paying for like a gym membership or a wine of the month club do they have those.
907 - 908 Jonathan Mendonsa I'm sure they will.
908 - 925 Liz - Mrs. Frugalwoods I know that sounds pretty good to me. Trying to get anything that you can easily eliminate. You just take that off. You don't even think about it. You just remove it and then we did really intense work with our groceries and with other sort of necessary spending like transportation.
925 - 946 Jonathan Mendonsa I was noticing that you know we actually just recently did one on. We called it quote unquote the ultimate Costco meal plan and trying to get a couple to eat for around $300 a month. And I happened to notice when I was digging through your site that you kind of had something similar. And it looks like we've kind of come to the same place. But I would be interested just to hear a little bit about how you tackled the groceries.
"mealplan ", mealplan
946 - 973 Liz - Mrs. Frugalwoods Oh sure. So that was a big one for us. We love food. And my husband loves to cook. Thank goodness because I'm a terrible cook. It's really bad. So he is our chef and he's great cook and he loves good ingredients and so we were buying all kinds of nice fancy salmon and arugula and great things. But I was also buying a lot of packaged stuff because Trader Joe's has like all these really tasty package. The things I don't know if you've been in there.
973 - 974 Jonathan Mendonsa Preaching to the Choir.
974 - 980 Liz - Mrs. Frugalwoods It's roughly like I can't even go in there anymore because I'm. Oh yes. I mean these pumpkin covered spice lattes.
980 - 991 Jonathan Mendonsa My wife's favorite thing is the unsweetened dried mango. It's like the only place you can get it and it's actually a very crazy reasonable price which is a common theme with Trader Joe's. Well this is surprisingly affordable I.
991 - 1091 Liz - Mrs. Frugalwoods Like the cheese section. I mean I'm down like 50 bucks just in the cheese aisle. I can't. This is before I even get to the wine. So that had to stop. So part of me is where you're shopping. I have a tough time because I thought I was being frugal because I wasn't going to Whole Foods right False. So I found a discount grocery store which did not tempt me. It's a regional chain market basket. If you're in the Northeast you absolutely must shop there. And that there are other discount chains across the country and around the world. Aldies this one I think it's Ladel in Britain. I've heard from readers that you know they have there are chains that are known for providing discount foods so go there or Costco is also good. And then focus on bulk raw ingredients. So anything that comes in a package anything that's pre-made pre-cooked it's going to be more expensive. So we make our own bread. We make our own hummus. We make our own pasta sauce. All of this is made from scratch, and cooking from scratch has a number of benefits. It tastes better. First of all it really does. And it's better for you because you're controlling the ingredients and you're not adding the immense amounts of sugar and salt that are in packaged foods and it's much cheaper per serving and you also have the advantage of never running out of food which is a good thing when you live where I do and can get snowed in and actually not be able to leave your property for days. It's not relevant for a lot of people. But It is for us. So having a pantry of kind of bulk raw ingredients flour onions olive oil things like that you can create a meal at any time from the foods that you have on hand.
cooking, mealplan
1091 - 1101 Jonathan Mendonsa You have 10 bullet points written down on how we save. Sixty five are now against you 75 percent annually. Maybe we could just walk through a few of those. Do you have that there.
1101 - 1110 Liz - Mrs. Frugalwoods Oh gosh you know I should put it up there because that was a number of years ago and a lot has happened since then and so it's highly likely that I've forgotten what I wrote so hopefully I agree with what I.
1110 - 1112 Brad Barrett Let's see if you agree with what you wrote.
1112 - 1118 Jonathan Mendonsa Does Liz agree agree with Liz. All right. Number one we don't have any debt other than our mortgage.
1118 - 1194 Liz - Mrs. Frugalwoods So true. What I would say about that. You know I have a couple comments on that. So debt is bad but not all debt is bad. And I think it's important to be cognizant of that when you're trying to grow your wealth. If you have a mortgage with a nice low interest rate and I think the mortgage on that house at the time was like 3.7 percent and you know if you have a nice low interest rate. Having a mortgage is completely fine. And you guys can feel free to disagree with me because that you know there are a lot of different opinions on this but where I come down is that you're going to see a better return on your money if it's invested if you put all of your money into your house. It's a relatively illiquid asset and you're essentially sort of putting all of your eggs into one basket. And although you might be mortgage free if you don't have any other assets you've really limited your the growth potential for your money. If you have tons and tons and billions and billions of dollars which you probably don't if you're listening to this you know then sure pay down pay off your mortgage. That's fine. But if you're looking at how to utilize and leverage you know a limited amount of cash which I think most people fall into that category. Think very hard before you put all of your money towards a mortgage with a low interest rate.
1194 - 1197 Jonathan Mendonsa I think that's fantastic advice.
1197 - 1199 Liz - Mrs. Frugalwoods Oh you guys aren't going to disagree with me darn.
1199 - 1207 Jonathan Mendonsa you're ready. Yeah you know both of us that kind of walk through that thought process and depending on especially in the low mortgage rates.
1207 - 1218 Liz - Mrs. Frugalwoods And it's tough because you know for people like my husband and I could afford to pay down all of our mortgages. Right. So every now and then I get that like oh maybe we just do that and it just feels so good.
1218 - 1255 Brad Barrett I definitely struggle with that as well as far as paying down a mortgage. Similar but it's to me it's so psychologically satisfying. Exactly. But like you just said the math just doesn't work. I always come back and it's like oh man I would love to pay that off but a. It's the math of just investing that money in and presumably getting a larger return compounded over many years. And also opportunity cost right. I mean you have if you have hundreds of thousands of dollars sitting in quote unquote equity in your house it's just sitting there. I think people say oh it's costing me nothing to live here but hey you have $300000 sitting tied up that you can invest. And that's often the opportunity cost is often left out.
1255 - 1267 Liz - Mrs. Frugalwoods Yes absolutely. And I think it's also it's a good hedge against inflation. It's just a good aspect of a diversified portfolio. I think as long as you have a low interest rate which if you bought in the last I don't know number of years you should have.
1267 - 1269 Jonathan Mendonsa And a fixed interest rate.
1269 - 1271 Liz - Mrs. Frugalwoods That's a really good point as well. Know.
1271 - 1274 Jonathan Mendonsa Number two on here we spend very little on entertainment.
1274 - 1414 Liz - Mrs. Frugalwoods That is so true. You know we really spend about $0 on entertainment because I find over and over again that there is so much free entertainment that it's ridiculous. So at the very base level we have a Roku. And so we're able to watch television for free. We also don't watch that much TV but we do have you know free television there any time we need it we listen to the radio streaming over the web so that's free. We listen to Pandora for music which is awesome for him. So that's kind of the traditional entertainment sector. I also find the internet is an endless source of entertainment. Anything you want or research or read about it's right there for free so we do have Internet. So that's an expense which I guess you could consider as an entertainment expense. And then in terms of traditional forms of kind of going out and about for entertainment we don't eat out we for a while. We did not eat out at all. We never went to restaurants. Now I would say we probably eat out once a month. That was kind of something we added back in. It's fun. We enjoy it so once a month feels about right and is a pretty insignificant hit on the budget overall. We don't go to movies I don't think we've been in a movie theater in like 10 years. I have no desire to go to a movie theater because I sit on my own couch and like eat my own food drink my own wine cuddle with my dog you know to me that the value proposition of a big screen is not very overbearing. We don't pay for concerts or shows or anything like that. We find plenty of free entertainment to partake of and we also have created a lot of really frugal habits and hobbies so we love to hike. One of the reasons why we moved out here to the woods is because we hike every day and we're able to just hike right outside our front door. We snowshoe we sled. We really are able to enjoy the outdoors to the fullest which is fantastic entertainment. We get together with friends a lot and we have potlucks and we hang out and kids play and it's free and it's wonderful. And then having a child there are tons of free kids activities even out here in the middle of nowhere and so we go to three library playgroups we go to song classes subclasses as class when she is one and a half. I don't know but it's free singing. And then I host a lot of playgroups in our home so I really feel no need to sign her up for expensive classes at this stage.
hobbies, library, valuist
1414 - 1439 Jonathan Mendonsa So the interesting thing there you said you spend very little entertainment but that's not the same as not having any entertainment. in fact it almost sounds like you've made it the challenge to figure out countless ways to create or have entertainment for free. And what I loved about that is bringing your social group and bringing your neighbors and including them in these frugal, in these free, and these healthy activities that you all do together. I think that's a very very cool.
1439 - 1461 Liz - Mrs. Frugalwoods Absolutely. You know what I find is that. When you start inviting friends over to your home instead of going to a restaurant they are thrilled they're like this is fantastic. We don't have to get a babysitter. We don't have to make a reservation. We don't you know it becomes a lot easier. And I think you're able to build deeper relationships with people when you have them in your home and you're really sharing your lives together.
1461 - 1469 Jonathan Mendonsa Number three we make our breakfast lunch coffee and seltzer and I think if I remember from your blog Seltzer is your ultimate life hack. Is that fair.
blogger, lifeoptimization
1469 - 1523 Liz - Mrs. Frugalwoods It's a pretty good life I actually asked my husband before the show is like what's our best lifehack. Oh it's the seltzer obviously. So this is a great example of luxurious frugality we love seltzer. And so my husband figured out a way to hack our soda stream system so that we have seltzer for you know extremely extremely cheap. And yes we so when we were both working in an office neither of us are in office anymore. We took all of our food to work every day it was such an easy habit to like you know you buy coffee you work and then mid-morning your like I need a muffin and then you buy lunch and then and you're like oh let's go get some more coffee. So you think you're spending like 20, 30 dollars a day in food. And what I challenge people to think is like do you really want to be paying to work every day.
frugality, lifeoptimization
1523 - 1524 Brad Barrett How boring.
1524 - 1536 Liz - Mrs. Frugalwoods So just take your own food people you know and. And when I was pregnant and like starving all the time I had gone to work with. I mean it was like a duffel bag of food.
1536 - 1537 Jonathan Mendonsa Just to survive.
1537 - 1553 Liz - Mrs. Frugalwoods I ate it all. I was thrilled. It was fine. So it's you know it's really possible kind of at any stage. And my husband biked to work every single day and he took all of his food with him. So I've heard both of these excuses I'm pregnant and or I bike. you can take your food.
1553 - 1557 Jonathan Mendonsa Uhm you used Costco and Amazon.com for household supplies.
1557 - 1594 Liz - Mrs. Frugalwoods Yes. And I'm so sad we don't have Costco out here we have BJ's which is a Costco corollary and it works almost as well but if you have a choice go at Costco they really have the best deals and Amazon. And then we also have a couple other stores out here that I use so the key there is really just to price compare and figure out where your cheapest options are. So I kind of do the price comparison once because it's a little bit arduous you have to look at the price per ounce of the shampoo and all that. do it once figure out where it's cheapest And then just put yourself on autopilot and just buy it there each time thereafter.
1594 - 1597 Jonathan Mendonsa All right. We do not have a car payment.
1597 - 1633 Liz - Mrs. Frugalwoods That's correct. Yeah we've never had a car payment so at the time I wrote that post. We had a 19 year old minivan with like 240000 miles or something which worked just fine. We now have two 2010 cars. We have a Subaru Outback and a Prius both of which we bought for cash. And as happenstance had it and bought them about a month apart from each other two months after we bought our new home here in Vermont. So it's having cash on hand is a wonderful benefit in frugality because you kind of never know exactly when you're twenty year old minivan is going to die and you're going to need multiple new cars.
1633 - 1659 Jonathan Mendonsa And let's tie that back one of the reasons y'all had the flexibility to do that is because you weren't spending every single dollar that came in. On the other stupid stuff you made a value choice to decrease the cost of your food to decrease the cost of the entertainment. And all these other little life actually implemented to decrease the cost of your seltzer water. And because you are spending money all that stuff you now have this cash on hand that when you need to purchase a new house and two new cars you can go out and pay for that cash you don't have to sign up for the inevitable car payment.
1659 - 1718 Liz - Mrs. Frugalwoods Exactly. And you know what I would say to that too is it's like needing a car is not an emergency unless you live in a very urban area and can get by on public transit which by the way is what my husband and I did for many many years so we were carless for maybe the first six years of our marriage because we were living in the middle of cities. It would have been expensive and difficult to have a car so that was another conscious choice on our part. But needing a car is not an emergency. And you also don't need a brand new car. People say I need safety and I need all wheel drive because I live in the country. I need those things too. But I can get them from a 2010 just as well as I can from a 2017 model. So I really encourage people to pursue used cars. You know when you see the price difference between a new car and a used car it's even just a couple years old. It is incredible cars depreciate the minute they leave the lot. This is something I really hope that people will recognize is that a new car you all might disagree with you but I think it's one of the worst financial decisions you.
1718 - 1726 Jonathan Mendonsa Don't tie up your financial future and something is going down in value it's like driving down the highway throwing hundred bills out the window. There's no need for that.
1726 - 1767 Brad Barrett Yeah I completely agree with you there. Liz Again I mean we went up buying. I guess when my older daughter was on the way we bought a Toyota Highlander. I guess we decided that the infinite wisdom that we need an SUV. But instead of paying $30000 for it brand new we walked to Carmax right down the road and got I think it had 27000 miles on it. So essentially essentially new anyways and you know I was 15000. So literally half price and we've had it now. Coming up on 10 years and it's still ready to roll it will literally be Adda's first car. in all likelihood we've got it for her birth and we'll give it to her someday.
1767 - 1790 Jonathan Mendonsa And Brad and I are planning on having another podcast in the future talking about the true cost of car ownership. But just as a bullet point right now I think maybe you'll agree that that sweet spot if you want to get a new car that's used is probably about five years old I think that's when the depreciation starts to slow down. Number nine almost and I've skipped some because we kind of covered the whole process but almost everything we buy is used.
1790 - 1840 Liz - Mrs. Frugalwoods That is 100 percent true. The used market. I mean it's follows is exactly what we were just saying about used cars seems to depreciate immediately as soon as they're no longer new they are vastly less expensive and lucky for us in the Internet age we can use Craigslist we can use e-mail listers if you're a parent get on your local parents group because people give away their baby stuff like you would not believe my daughter's nursery so every piece of her furniture and all of her clothing was free. Well I just I took hand me downs I found giveaways I found some stuff on the side of the road which I wash because baby stuff is all infinitely washable so I found this great little swing. I was like nine months pregnant. I'm going to my car into my 20 year old minivan like the totally dented.
1840 - 1847 Jonathan Mendonsa There's somebody listening to now that just said she took something off the side of the road. I'm not listening to anything. This is just this is too much is just too much.
1847 - 1849 Brad Barrett She is a frugal weirdo after all.
1849 - 1872 Liz - Mrs. Frugalwoods I am. I am. But the thing is if you come into my home you would never know that. And you can peruse the photos on the blog because I clean everything. I wash it sometimes I repaint it. There's a lot of joy in this. So in addition to it being cheap or free it's really fun because you never know what you're going to find. Like I just got a free coffee table and and loving it and I use it as my daughter's play table.
1872 - 1880 Jonathan Mendonsa And how much more fun is that to talk about as a story when someone says Oh that is beautiful Where'd you get that. Well I'm glad you asked. Let me tell you about it.
1880 - 1893 Liz - Mrs. Frugalwoods Oh yeah. My friends are like I know you found on this on the side. There's no fun anymore. I can't even get them they know. Well yes. So I've lost my you know fun conversation starter.
1893 - 1896 Brad Barrett Maybe now they're doing it how they're telling you what they are.
1896 - 1927 Liz - Mrs. Frugalwoods But there's, you know I think when we buy something and we pay full price for it we have really high expectations for it. Right. It needs to be perfect it needs to last. It needs to look absolutely correct. And when it starts to fall short because inevitably it's going to, you know we get frustrated with it right like why isn't this couch. Why does it have a stain you know whereas with my couch which has endured a lot of baby in dogged situations I don't care because it was cheap for me to begin with. If it falls apart it's just not that big of a deal.
1927 - 1929 Jonathan Mendonsa Our Frugal hound can get on the couch.
1929 - 1936 Liz - Mrs. Frugalwoods No because she does not seem like she's allowed to but she does she's afraid of furniture.
1936 - 1937 Brad Barrett Afraid of furniture.
1937 - 1968 Liz - Mrs. Frugalwoods So she doesn't jump on it but it's just this idea that we're a lot more content with things that we don't pay for. And we're also a lot happier with things that we build or create ourselves. And this is actually not just me saying this. There was a study done called the Ikea Effect that looks into the happiness that we derive from doing things ourselves. When people put together their IKEA furniture even if it kind of doesn't come out correctly and is a bit wobbly they are much more content with the result than if they bought pre made furniture.
1968 - 1970 Jonathan Mendonsa Number 10 no impulse buy.
1970 - 2048 Liz - Mrs. Frugalwoods Yes. So before you buy anything I encourage you to wait 72 hours. So write it down on a list. When you first feel that you need it and then force yourself to wait that 72 hours before you buy it. And in doing this you will find invariably that you don't buy it, because a lot of times the things that we think we need in the moment that need dissipates over time. You know we experienced this sort of jolt of dopamine when we feel like we must have something. And then if we carry through on it and buy it we continue riding that sort of consumer high. But then, we need another hit of dopamine a couple of days later and so we buy something. And so we get ourselves onto this sort of consumer carrousel. where we're constantly ratcheting up our expectations and by waiting 72 hours you're interrupting this cycle you're putting some space in between making the decision that you want it and then buying it. It's a waiting time you're really giving yourself the opportunity to breathe and reflect. And what I find I do this this is how I manage my own life I write it down on a Google document I really and truly am actually looking at it right now I have this list of thing on right now right now on there is I really want to get a play kitchen for my daughter so she can stand and play at it.
2048 - 2050 Jonathan Mendonsa how Many hours has it been on that list.
2050 - 2067 Liz - Mrs. Frugalwoods How many hours probably a couple of weeks. Cause Here's the thing. I know that a free one or a cheap one is going to come my way. I can't tell you how many times this happens to me if you wait and bide your time you will find sort of a frugal analog for just about anything you're looking for.
2067 - 2076 Jonathan Mendonsa So after it stays on there for 72 hours or while it's on there you know for that period of time what questions are you asking yourself to try to determine whether or not to keep it on that list or not.
2076 - 2117 Liz - Mrs. Frugalwoods So the first thing is to figure out if you own something that will serve as a substitute. So I wanted like a little play table for my daughter and I discovered that I had this end table that's really low to the ground that was just a decorative and table that she could use. I was like most perfect. I already own this and this was after like already researching these tables online it I would have noticed this end table but we just don't always realize the things that we own that can be repurposed in a different way then the other thing is if it's a short term something you need for a short period of time like a specific tool for a job. See if you can borrow it from somebody and if you still really feel like you need to look into whether or not you can find it used.
2117 - 2149 Brad Barrett I just want to jump in here and say that you've actually impacted me positively with this because I read about the 72 hour waiting period on your side. And I think you mentioned it during that Uber frugal month as well. And you know very specifically I got an e-mail I'm on like Tim Ferriss his e-mail list and he's sent out about this card game that was you know he was really into and I thought it would be wonderful for my family to play. So I hopped on Amazon. It was $9 So it's a minuscule amount of money. But I actually had the thought what would Liz do. I literally said.
2149 - 2153 Jonathan Mendonsa I can see those bumper stickers taking over the world.
2153 - 2184 Brad Barrett So I walked in to speak with my wife and Laura and I said we just got it was right after Christmas essentially So we had just gotten some new games. I guess a handful games to play with our kids and we're like do we really need this other game even though we've heard it's fantastic it got great reviews. It's $9 big deal. But we said no we're going to shelve that put it on a wish list and it's probably a month later and I have not bought the thing and I didn't need it. And maybe someday will buy it but that will be a conscious decision as opposed to just that impulse buy that you talk about.
2184 - 2233 Liz - Mrs. Frugalwoods And I think also Brad you bring up a great point. It's only $9. And so I think our our assumption and my assumptions certainly used to be it's nine dollars. just buy it. what's the big deal. But the problem is that when we adapt that mentality that happens over and over again, and in the course of a week or a month you're looking at hundreds of dollars. So, a fun thing to do is in addition to putting it on your list to wait 72 hours, start writing down the amounts, and then total up everything you didn't buy over the course of a month or a year or even a day. And then if you want to get really fancy, there's a compounding interest calculator online that you can do and you can put that dollar amount in and see how much it would return if you instead invested that amount every year in the stock market. And it's usually a shockingly huge number.
2233 - 2239 Jonathan Mendonsa I love that number 12. We do all of our grooming at home.
2239 - 2271 Liz - Mrs. Frugalwoods Yes. That is so true. So I cut my husband's hair. He cuts my hair. We wash our dog ourselves. We do anything that you might otherwise pay someone to do. We just do at home. And this is a level of both in-sourcing which is a key element of frugality but also embracing imperfection. Life is not perfect. Things are never going to be perfect. And so my opinion is like might as well just not spend money on it and embrace the imperfection rather than spend a bunch of money and be angry about the imperfections.
2271 - 2278 Jonathan Mendonsa We're 10 percent there. My wife cuts my hair currently am I'm terrified to touch her hair.
2278 - 2291 Liz - Mrs. Frugalwoods I have a tutorial on the blog. I was also terrified that my husband was more terrified. But it worked and it was completely fine. And it's just you then suddenly realize that this is not a big deal. And also I don't care that much about my hair.
2291 - 2332 Jonathan Mendonsa Well what I love about having my wife cut right now the first time she did it she did kind of scalp me a little bit on the side that happened. But once we got that once that gets out of the way. Now I have this one person that every single month they're getting a little bit closer to what my goal is and if you're paying to go have it done inevitably you're going to someone that's never cut your hair before and you're trying to start from scratch. So what I found after three or four or five or six or eight or 10 haircuts is that I love my haircut. I've never liked it better when I went out and so it doesn't necessarily have to be this. Oh I'm sacrificing quality. My wife does an amazing job and she started by scalping me. But you know here we are a year later and it was the best decision and now it's 20 30 40 bucks a month that year. You know you don't have to worry about it anymore.
2332 - 2360 Liz - Mrs. Frugalwoods It is also saving you time. I'm a big fan of this. When you insource things you save time. you don't have to call make an appointment, drive to the salon or bike to the salon, wait there, get your haircut, and pay your 20 bucks. You don't have to do any of that. I mean it takes me like 13 minutes to cut my husband's hair. And we timed it, and it takes him even less to cut mine. So that's a lot of time saved and I tend to think that time is a more valuable resource even than money.
2360 - 2395 Brad Barrett Yeah I totally agree with that. And this kind of gets to the busyness that people are always talking about. Right. People wear this as a badge of honor. Oh I'm so busy. People are running around like crazy. We see it with our daughters at school I mean half the parents in the class literally don't respond to the simple directions that come back from the future every day. I mean what's going on in their brains. And I kind of question like how people just go through a normal day just being so frazzled. It just seems like such a such a crazy existence to me and a lot of it comes down to just not setting priorities. To me this perpetual busyness is just so detrimental psychologically.
2395 - 2425 Liz - Mrs. Frugalwoods It is. And I kind of think that frugality, kind of where I've come with my frugality, my frugality is much less about the money these days and I have kind of got that part down. It's much more about how can I simplify my life. How can I take away the unnecessary business, the unnecessary tasks, and just focus on what I want to do in a day. You know and do do that to the fullest. And that's something that frugality will allow you to do is to really simplify and streamline and let go of a lot of these unnecessary pressures.
2425 - 2461 Brad Barrett Yeah couldn't agree more. And you kind of touched on that earlier when you talked about about happiness and just being. Being content with your life. And I think unfortunately a lot of people either A just list from day to day not knowing what makes them happy or not even contemplating it I guess and it sounds like you and Mr. frugal woods have been very intentional about your lives certainly since March 2014 and I imagine pre-dating that but I guess if you don't mind I'd love to just pivot for a second and talk about the homestead. Talk about Vermont for a second and I guess first in March 2014 since that seems like the seminal moment there was the decision for the homestead made then.
2461 - 2525 Liz - Mrs. Frugalwoods Yes. So what we realized is that for the last number of years we've been leaving the city every weekend to hike, and we drive these incredible distances in order to reach mountains that we could hike. Then we would Have a wonderful time. Our best experiences were on the mountains, just spending time together walking around in nature, not buying anything, not consuming any media, and then we come home and have to go back to work on Monday, And we're like, oh, this is not how we want our structure of time to be worked out. So we started thinking about, OK, what if we had like a weekend place, you know, a weekend cabin that we could go to that advanced into. OK what if maybe we tried to retire and we were early like we were when we were younger maybe when we were in our 50s or something and moved to the mountains then and this evolved into this conversation of why don't we do it now. What's actually preventing us from doing that. OK. The answer is money. And so how do we get ourselves into the position where we can live the life we want for the next, you know 40 50 years as opposed to waiting until we're 50 or 60 in order to pursue this.
2525 - 2530 Jonathan Mendonsa And how long do you think the timeline would be at that point. In March 2014.
2530 - 2597 Liz - Mrs. Frugalwoods So we mapped it out as being probably September 2017. And what happened is that we found our dream property in November 2015 which is coincidentally also the month that our daughter was born. And so we think we had been looking at places for about three years at that point because we started looking prior to our sort of extreme frugality conversation. And so we knew this was the property for us. There are a lot of factors that go into rural property buying you know it's not just the home it's the land it's the quality of the forest it's the septic It's the well it's where you're positioned in the state what your road is like what your driveway is like. You know there are kind of an infinite number of factors as compared with urban and suburban home buying. So all of those factors lined up in this property and we thought we have to do as we have you know this is the one. So again thanks to frugality. It was not a hardship for us to accelerate the timeline and make the decision to buy at that time and to move in full time in May.
2597 - 2599 Brad Barrett Wow so you're coming up on a year at this point right.
2599 - 2600 Liz - Mrs. Frugalwoods I guess so.
2600 - 2619 Brad Barrett That's amazing that's amazing. And now the way you describe the search for the homestead that actually if my recollection is correct that's similar to what you did with your house in Cambridge right didn't you. I guess that's you know Search for years and go to open house upon open house just it sounds like information asymmetry like you have more information than the market at that point.
2619 - 2730 Liz - Mrs. Frugalwoods But absolutely and that's really the position that ideally you want to be in when you're doing anything buying a home buying a car with the Internet. You can educate yourself and you can absolutely know what a good deal is and when you found it and that was how we bought our home in Cambridge it was it's a single family home and we bought it for the lowest price per square foot of that season. And it was not a tear down at all. It was completely more than ready. Why. It showed horribly. You know and we were able to look past those things and recognize the value based on the square footage the price per square foot. And so it's really knowing the market of anything that you're getting into and knowing what you're trying to achieve from it. So with our Cambridge home we knew what we were trying to achieve was something that we could one day rent with our home here in Vermont and we're trying to achieve a long term family home that we'd be living in for many years. So having those goals in mind made it pretty easy for us to pounce when we saw these places you know sort of Cambridge how we put in an offer. I think the day after we saw it or the same day I mean it was immediate. And then with this time in Vermont we also put in an offer very soon after viewing it because we knew. And so I think years and years of research it does two things. It gives you all the information you need in order to strategically indecisively pursue what you want then it also gives you something to do it occupies your brain and it occupies your time while you are working towards a goal. You know it's very hard I think to have these long term goals that are years if not decades out. But when you are researching towards that goal you are actively thinking about it every single day. And I loved that, when we were living in the city. Oh I just loved looking at properties and reading about them and learning about septic systems because I felt like I was being active.
2730 - 2758 Jonathan Mendonsa That's powerful. I've definitely found that to be the case myself when I'm not actually ready to execute on something neither from a money perspective or otherwise. You can spend that time learning about it getting more information and learning is free or at least it can be. And when you're spending your time doing something that's free you don't have time just to spend money and then you're essentially reaching your goal faster. So I've definitely learned realized that that is true in my own life in many ways.
2758 - 2763 Liz - Mrs. Frugalwoods That's right. And you're reminding yourself everyday of what you want in the long term.
2763 - 2775 Jonathan Mendonsa All right so I'm going to pivot here. I mean gosh you know and this is a little bit tongue in cheek but you guys you know you don't spend any money you must you must be so bored.
2775 - 2848 Liz - Mrs. Frugalwoods I know that it's our culture has really designed this paradigm that in order to be sort of entertained and happy you need to be spending lots of money. And you know taking your kids to Disneyland and doing all these things and. There's room for that in our lives. You know my husband and I we do travel we do do more conventional entertainment things from time to time. But. We really are sort of fighting back against this concept that you need to spend money in order to be happy. It sounds really obvious and sort of flat. When I say it like that of course I don't need to spend money to be happy but think about it you know think very carefully about where your money is going and what you're spending in service of. So one of the great tactics here is frugal substitution. So for anything that you love doing it's really expensive. See if you can find a frugal alternative. I have been shocked at the number of things that we are now able to do for free that we used to spend money on. So I used to pay for yoga classes every week and these were like $18 the class and I was taking like three or four classes a week it was like this is good it's yoga I'm so healthy. But we looked at our budget. My husband was like oh my gosh.
health, travel
2848 - 2850 Brad Barrett $3000 a year.
2850 - 2863 Liz - Mrs. Frugalwoods Yes and YOGA. He's like I mean I'm glad you're doing yoga but honestly and so I went to my studio and I figured out that I could volunteer at the front desk and take out the trash in my car and get free classes.
2863 - 2864 Jonathan Mendonsa Nice.
2864 - 2881 Liz - Mrs. Frugalwoods So I was. I was perfectly happy to do that. And there was a great added benefit there. I made a ton of friends by doing that because I was suddenly really involved in the yoga studio community. So that was one of my first lessons in you know don't assume that you have to pay or pay full price for everything.
2881 - 2970 Jonathan Mendonsa I mean one of the things you do you do a great job mixing up really really in-depth articles with little short articles and what I loved about this one. Are you bored that we were talking about is just a few of these bullet points you said we don't worry about keeping up or competing over material goods. We just we don't do it. My husband and I we never fight about money we just don't have fights because we're on the same page and we don't fret about it we don't worry about it. We know we have enough because we live way way below our means. I mean that is powerful for some people who don't have that world view and then below that you you are basically saying I'm not jealous of people who spend everything they earn. Seems as though they're struggling to find meaning through money. And then for you you know money does sustains your basic needs food shelter clothing. And but it's not a goal in and of itself. You're not hoarding money just to have money. You're doing it to free yourself from the vicious cycle of lifestyle inflation. I think that's really powerful that's that's a completely different way of looking at money. And now talking to the audience here you know when you look at this think about the things that we talked about that nothing that we said is particularly crazy or outlandish. And although you may not do everything that we talked about in this podcast it's going to be helpful for you long term to see if you can adapt just a few of these things into your own life because once you start to go down this rabbithole it starts to make sense. And it's empowering. It opens up all these options that you may not have considered. So thank you Liz so much for sharing your time with us and going through some of these thoughts with us today.
needsvswants, podcaster
2970 - 2972 Liz - Mrs. Frugalwoods Oh my pleasure. Thank you for having me.
2972 - 2979 Jonathan Mendonsa And finally what we're going to do. I'm so excited for you. You are going to be our first guest on the hot seat.
2979 - 2981 Liz - Mrs. Frugalwoods Oh dear.
2981 - 2982 Brad Barrett Pressure is on.
2982 - 2989 Jonathan Mendonsa Wait for it and go.
2989 - 3017 Speaker In a world drowning in debt and rampant consumption. Trapped by the chains of lifestyle inflation. These questions highlight the secrets of those who are broken free. Welcome to the choose F-I hot seat.
3017 - 3023 Jonathan Mendonsa All right Liz. Question number one favorite blog that's not your own.
3023 - 3027 Liz - Mrs. Frugalwoods Oh oh. It's so hard to pick just one I really have to.
3027 - 3030 Jonathan Mendonsa You only get one. No you can have two. That's fine.
3030 - 3040 Liz - Mrs. Frugalwoods OK. I love. Fifteen hundred days of freedom. And I also love Kate Flanders. So they cover frugality and Kate covers minimalism and it's just done beautifully and written so well.
3040 - 3041 Jonathan Mendonsa Mr. 1500.
3041 - 3042 Liz - Mrs. Frugalwoods Yes.
3042 - 3043 Brad Barrett We're interviewing him later actually.
3043 - 3045 Liz - Mrs. Frugalwoods Well there you go.
3045 - 3052 Brad Barrett Kate Flanders I'm actually not familiar with her blog. Can you give us. Yeah I know you gave us a two line overview but can you just give us a little more.
3052 - 3079 Liz - Mrs. Frugalwoods Sure. Sure. So Kate paid off quite a bit of debt and in the process really restructured her life and embraced minimalism and found ways to achieve sort of lasting happiness and peace not through spending money and not through owning things. And her writing is just incredible and so articulate and so thoughtful and it's very inspiring for me to read what she writes.
3079 - 3090 Brad Barrett That's wonderful and obviously that's high praise coming from you who in my opinion is the best writer to writer out there in personal finance sphere. So yeah that's awesome.
3090 - 3091 Liz - Mrs. Frugalwoods Aww. Thank you.
3091 - 3093 Jonathan Mendonsa Now question number two favorite article of all time.
3094 - 3133 Liz - Mrs. Frugalwoods So that would probably be my choice. That comes when less is enough post and what that talks about is the rarity of something's occurrence enhances its enjoyment. The idea behind that is that the less you do something that's very indulgent. Let's say having a really rich meal out at a restaurant. The more you enjoy each experience. If you ate that rich meal every single night of the week. Your enjoyment would wane you would start to find fault with it you would get fussy you would get picky. But when you do once a month or once a year it's an incredible experience.
3133 - 3136 Jonathan Mendonsa That's powerful Yeah. If you eat lobster every day it starts to taste like soap.
3136 - 3138 Liz - Mrs. Frugalwoods Probably so.
3138 - 3144 Jonathan Mendonsa All right. Number three I think we actually covered this earlier and maybe you still agree that your favorite life hack.
3144 - 3151 Liz - Mrs. Frugalwoods Definitely the SodaStream hack and we have a post on the blog where my husband outlines all of his engineering to hack.
3151 - 3157 Jonathan Mendonsa So you have to be an engineer to do this or can your everyday guy just do this.
3157 - 3164 Liz - Mrs. Frugalwoods your everyday gal or guy could do this. He's got the the instructions on there pretty clearly so anyone can.
3164 - 3169 Jonathan Mendonsa Very cool. Number four your biggest financial mistake.
3169 - 3180 Liz - Mrs. Frugalwoods I think this was not recognizing our long term goals early on in our marriage. We saved decently but we could have saved more. And we just could have been more deliberate and focused.
3180 - 3185 Brad Barrett Liz how many years were you married before the moment. In March 2014 where you had that discussion.
3185 - 3219 Liz - Mrs. Frugalwoods Gosh we were married for six years. At that point. So that's just kind of took us a long time to get around to what we wanted to do with our lives. We got married when we were 24 in 2008 and then this was 2014. So I think I'm grateful that we got married so young because Have we gotten married later we would be making that decision much later in life. But you know I think at 24 we were just we were very focused on what was right in front of us and not thinking more broadly about the long term. So I wish that we had sat down at 24 and said OK why do you want to be in 20 years.
3219 - 3227 Brad Barrett Yeah I wonder how different your life would be today if you had that discussion in 2008. Have you ever reflected on the.
3227 - 3242 Liz - Mrs. Frugalwoods You know I don't know I am so not a fan of dwelling on the past that I actually have not thought about that. And we are also very different people than we were at that time. And so I honestly think we probably would have had different answers.
3242 - 3249 Jonathan Mendonsa This is kind of tied in I guess. But you know what. Question number five the advice you would give your younger self.
3249 - 3282 Liz - Mrs. Frugalwoods So this would be to not stress out and to embrace the stage of life that I'm in. When I was younger I was very concerned with like being an adult quote unquote and succeeding quote unquote. And I was not at all thinking about what makes me happy. So I will say go back to say like chill out and stop worrying so much. And this is an ongoing struggle for me to really find peace in the present moment and to accept and love whatever stage of life I'm in.
3282 - 3298 Jonathan Mendonsa All right. Awesome Liz thank you so much for coming on the show today and spending some time with us. This has been a lot of fun. We really haven't even gotten through the tiniest fraction of the content that you have. So definitely would you would like to come back with us and do a couple more episodes at some point where we can dig into some of your other ideas.
3298 - 3300 Liz - Mrs. Frugalwoods I would love to. That would be great.
3300 - 3311 Jonathan Mendonsa Awesome. Real quick how can people connect with you. How can people connect with the frugal woods if they want to check out some of the information that you have and participate and some of the really cool ideas that you have.
3311 - 3321 Liz - Mrs. Frugalwoods Sure. So you can find us at frugalwoods dot com and you can sign up for our uber frugal month challenge which is free of course it's free to frugality.
3321 - 3323 Jonathan Mendonsa Wouldn't it be Awesome. if you Charged for it.
3323 - 3340 Liz - Mrs. Frugalwoods I know right. And you could follow me on Twitter at frugal woods you can find me on Facebook again frugalwoods once again you can find me on Instagram. Still frugal woods. You can e-mail me it's missus at frugal woods dot com so you know it's pretty much frugal woods across the board.
3340 - 3370 Jonathan Mendonsa All right. Awesome. So frugal woods it is. Liz thank you so much for coming on the show. This has been great. I've loved this conversation. You would make just an absolutely fantastic co-host to our audience for those of you that are interested in checking out Liza's blog and go to frugal Woods dot com. If you want to get some of the show notes from today's episode were some of the links that we mentioned. You can go to choose F-I dot com slash 0 1 2 that choose F-I dot com slash 0 1 2.

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