046 - Our Next Life The Reveal

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0 - 82 Jonathan Mendonsa Today we have a very special episode planned we're going to be speaking with Mrs. ONL from our next life and she's coming on the show today and she's bringing with her some breaking news. This is a really big deal. As many of you know the ONLs have hidden behind the veil of secrecy for the past two years and they teased us with that true identity as they continued to create and share ridiculously awesome content. Many of you have e-mailed us over the last six months to a year telling us we had to get on the bandwagon and we had to bring her on the show to to share her story. And Brad and I concurred So we've been collaborating behind the scenes to bring her on. And we wanted to time it around her official reveal that way we could get the real story. So today the veil of secrecy has been broken and Mrs. ONL else coming in to share their journey where they came from and what they're actually planning on doing with this next chapter in their life. Welcome to the choose F-I radio podcast. Brad I don't think I'm overstating it to say that this is kind of a big deal. I mean this is something that the FI community has been looking forward to this for quite a while now and I feel like I don't think we can keep this going much longer but we have a nice little two week streak going on right now. I mean last week J.D. Roth repurchases get rich slowly. And today this is another bombshell announcement.
82 - 122 Brad Barrett You're right it's it's not everyday we get to break some big exciting news here in the FI community. So Miss ONL is a prolific and accomplished writer and we've had so many people list their blog as their favorite blog in our hot seat questions or have people e-mail us in to get them on the show. So A this is long awaited in general but B to be able to break this news of their identity. They're finally coming out from behind the veil of anonymity here and they've hit their FI number and they are on the glide path here for the end of their jobs. And it's an exciting time so this should be a really really fun conversation.
122 - 126 Jonathan Mendonsa Well Mrs. ONL Welcome to the choose F-I radio podcast How are you doing today.
126 - 129 Tanja "Mrs. Our Next Life" Hester I am doing great. It's so awesome be here with you guys. Thanks for having me.
129 - 159 Jonathan Mendonsa Well we are we are absolutely thrilled as Brad was referencing a few minutes ago I think we've had at least three of our guests say that you were the one blog that had an impact on their on their life and I'm not surprised they went back to go check out your content. I think you're approaching 300 articles at this point and you have a compelling writing style that's uniquely your own you're just a better writer than I am at every single level. You're just an amazing writer so it's a real joy to get a chance to go read the content and then now hopefully today to share some of that with us.
159 - 194 Tanja "Mrs. Our Next Life" Hester Thank you for saying that. That's super nice. Yeah it's it is something that I have this blog has I think it's in many ways sort of taken over my life but in the best way possible it's something that I never expected would be this big a thing. When I started and I just really wanted to chronicle the journey. But then this community which you guys know is so amazing and I have so many folks who I count as real friends that have come out of this that it's made it really easy to keep going and to want to really care about putting out good content on a regular basis. So it's been a lot of work but it doesn't feel like work. It feels like a fun kind of of time spent.
194 - 204 Jonathan Mendonsa And I know we have a lot of audience members that have been holding their breath since the mad. FIentist episode where they didn't get to find out who you really were. So who do you like to go and make that reveal now.
204 - 222 Tanja "Mrs. Our Next Life" Hester Do I have to just kidding. Yeah it's up on the blog today too so folks can check it out there with photos. But on. My name is Tanya spelled with a J and J. And Mr. ONL is my husband Mark. So we are super excited to get to actually use our real human names moving forward.
222 - 233 Jonathan Mendonsa It is awesome Brad. Before the show started I was taking a guess at what the name was going to be and I decided it was going to be Kristen OLINGER. I don't even know if I know Kristen Olinger that was going to be her name. I was I was so sure of it.
233 - 241 Tanja "Mrs. Our Next Life" Hester I think there's something kind of Germanic in that which is close to my ethnic background but otherwise no you were totally wrong.
241 - 246 Brad Barrett So Jonathan out of the trillions of possible combinations that's the one you came up with out of thin air.
246 - 249 Jonathan Mendonsa I heard a voice.
249 - 274 Brad Barrett Tanja how does it feel. I mean this has got to be a weird day right. So you've been blogging for three years. This has become a significant part of your life and I'm part of it has been this anonymity. Right. And that cute like smiley face with the hearts over her eyes and all this stuff. What does it feel like on today. I mean today is your big reveal day like. I mean what did it feel like when you woke up this morning.
274 - 331 Tanja "Mrs. Our Next Life" Hester Yeah it's it is definitely surreal. I think there's so much surreal going on in life right now like it still doesn't totally feel like this is actually happening that we're actually retiring. So I think that's one whole level of weird ness that exists. I mean obviously we've both now given notice that it's actually happening. But you know I think the journey to FI and to early retirement is so long that on some level I think we all have to be in kind of a suspension of disbelief state and just you know like it becomes this thing on paper but for us anyway it feels a bit mind boggling that it's actually happening. And then to layer onto that that our faces are up on the blog today or our names are there where we live is there which we can talk about a little bit later. If you guys want. So it's funny it's definitely going to be an adjustment because I have spent the last almost three years at the blog being extremely careful and figuring out every possible way to hide our info so that we didn't accidentally get outed early. So now to actually put stuff up there willingly is kind of weird.
331 - 356 Brad Barrett So I've certainly seen many bloggers try to preserve their anonymity. But you've gone to great great lengths and I've always been curious. You talk about you know being your job in that if people found out they would be horrific. But talk me through like if you could your actual profession like why you think that it would have been so catastrophic and just any other details you guys thought through on why it was so essential that it be anonymous.
356 - 407 Tanja "Mrs. Our Next Life" Hester Yeah. I mean I think probably horrific is overstating it a little and I know the consequences of this would really just be for us. So the main thing is that the field that we're both still working in for just a couple of more months is a very small world. And if all of this came out and we were let go it would totally spoil our plans. We moved from a big city where we had a lot of job options. Now six years ago and we've been in a small mountain town where I think the best we could each hoped to do would be a job that earns maybe a third of what we earn now. So it's mostly been that it's mostly just been a recognition that if this all came out we couldn't rely on being able to keep our jobs at that point. And then that would just derail the whole plan. Like right now we're able to save at a kind of mind bogglingly fast rate because of the sweet gig we have. And it would mess all of that up if we came out a bit too early.
407 - 436 Jonathan Mendonsa And I'm sure there are people that have concerns and we kind of have vague concerns about whether or not it would be bad for us for our employers to find out that we are pursuing this FI path. I'm curious for you which part of that seemed the most dangerous was it from a career perspective. Was it the fact that you are sharing your thoughts on personal finance on the Internet. Was it that you have at this extraordinarily high savings rate. Was it that you have a plan to get out of the market within the next six months. In your mind what did those threads look like that made this somewhat dangerous for you to get. I guess the word would be doxed right.
career, savings
436 - 483 Tanja "Mrs. Our Next Life" Hester Yeah I think the main thing for us is just that the work we've been doing is the type of work where you're expected to be fully committed and it would suggest a lack of commitment. And I think also the fact that we're both off site so a remote staff. I think probably Mark would have had a better chance of being able to keep doing it. But I don't know that I would have been able to work for a company where people stick around a long time. I've been in my job for 15 years and that's not abnormal at all. And so when you're signaling that you're not necessarily loyal or you're not going to be there for the long haul it's just not something where anyone is going to invest in you or trust you with with sensitive long term things. We also have long term client relationships and I can't see being the person who would get assigned to things or who would be allowed to pursue things if if everybody knew I was leaving at a certain point.
483 - 495 Jonathan Mendonsa So Tanja I feel like we're kind of even on this show having to slowly extract all this information because you're just clutching onto it just out of old habits. I don't know can you share that with us what line of work were you in.
495 - 533 Tanja "Mrs. Our Next Life" Hester I know it's funny. I this is where I'm like just falling into old old habits. I actually don't mind saying so. And I think this will probably be disappointing to lots of folks who have said on our various surveys every time that they think we work for the big four. But in fact we've we've both been political consultants So a combination of political candidates political causes but also a lot of issue campaigns that are in some way related to policy or government outreach type types of work. So it probably will surprise no one to know that Mark has been on the polling side so he has our resident data guy. And then I have been on the communications side which has a lot of writing and speaking and all of his stuff that I talk about on the blog entries.
533 - 541 Brad Barrett I wonder where you like the old habits about like you know we moved from a big city to you know like it's hard to break the habit.
541 - 543 Tanja "Mrs. Our Next Life" Hester I Mean you can stop me if I do.
543 - 549 Jonathan Mendonsa I won't stop you. Just ask a follow up question What is this small town that you moved to.
549 - 571 Tanja "Mrs. Our Next Life" Hester I know I wrote realize that as I was saying it the small town that we moved to is in North Lake Tahoe on the California side which I think will probably be a surprise for lots of folks who think we live in Colorado and the big city we've moved from most recently was L.A. where we lived for eight years. But then before that we were we were both D.C. people. So our jobs are DC jobs.
571 - 609 Jonathan Mendonsa Well that is a very small town and a very close knit community. I don't know if you'd call it kumbaya or close but people do tend to know each other. One of the things I was very impressed by as I was reading to your concept was just how you made the very complex subject of health care accessible and while you don't necessarily have the perfect solution I felt like you at bare minimum understood the problem and was able to distill it into maybe 20 or 30 articles that I was able to understand and then have a better grasp of what the challenges were in terms of what face the early retiree and so do you feel that your background in your and your work in the field that you're in in some way enabled you to get that content or was that all self-taught.
609 - 643 Tanja "Mrs. Our Next Life" Hester Yeah it will probably surprise no one here again to know that health care is an issue that we have both worked on some markets has polling around it. Figure out what folks know and I have done some work over the years on different aspects of health care policy and helping people understand it. And my work really for the last 15 years has been to take incredibly complex policies and make them understandable to people who don't have Ph.D.s and who don't focus on the stuff every day. So absolutely I think that has has very much been a skill that I've honed at work and that I hope to always take with me.
643 - 678 Brad Barrett And Tanya it's so funny and I can speak probably as a member of your audience and for other members of the audience like it's almost like when you read a novel and you are picturing the places that you're reading about and the people in this story and whatnot and you know I for whatever reason came up with this whole just like Jonathan came up with your random name that he picked out of a trillion different possibility of it for some reason thought you lived in either New York or Boston previously and we're now in Colorado. I guess I don't know why but I guess we all think you live in Colorado. So yeah that's it's kind of cool to actually learn the truth behind the story.
678 - 701 Tanja "Mrs. Our Next Life" Hester Yeah. And you are not alone in that. And the latest reader contests 40 percent of people thought we live in Colorado so common misconception which I think just also plays to the fact that we've talked about skiing a lot and Colorado is the highest concentration of ski resorts in the country. And I talk a time about flying United. And so I think a lot of people maybe subconsciously went to Denver which I do fly through. But it is certainly not my home airport.
701 - 717 Brad Barrett That's funny because that is one of the main reasons as a travel rewards guy that that's exactly what I thought I saw a recent post. They think of us that had nine hundred ninety four thousand miles in premier one case that is. So yeah I figured for sure. Denver International was was the option.
717 - 719 Tanja "Mrs. Our Next Life" Hester You're selling me short. I have 1.3 million united miles.
719 - 726 Brad Barrett Oh OK. so it's an older article my fault. I thought it was recent Evidently I was wrong. That's me.
726 - 732 Tanja "Mrs. Our Next Life" Hester No they just they pile up quickly. So that was not too long ago. But yeah I will probably be at 1.4 before we quit.
732 - 740 Brad Barrett Wow. So you've just been stockpiling those I assume in post retirement. It's going to be OK we have all these united Miles. Let's use them right.
740 - 775 Tanja "Mrs. Our Next Life" Hester Yeah. I mean I think one of the things that I'm especially known for in the FI community is being incredibly risk averse and really focusing on a lot of contingency planning. And so our post-retirement budget is built around essentially being able to cut it in half if we have to pay off the house so we can live really cheaply. But that mileage stockpile and also some Marriott points and some chase points are all things that we will definitely use if for example we don't have money that year because the markets are crappy to be able to fly so that we can still fly to cheap places and so live really cheaply and still travel even if the economy is totally in the tank.
775 - 792 Brad Barrett So when you say cut it in half so your proposed budget. Do you have a budgeted spend for let's say this past 12 months and how do you anticipate that your first 12 months in post-retirement or whatever that you know in F-I whatever you want to call it. How does that compare to the prior 12 months.
792 - 896 Tanja "Mrs. Our Next Life" Hester Yeah it's there are a lot of things that are going to change for us that have made it a little bit of an apples to oranges problem. We've been living very very close to what we have budgeted for post-retirement but some of the things are going to get cheaper some are going to get more expensive. I travel so much for work that a lot of my meals are covered elsewhere so we actually think our grocery budget is going to need to go up a little bit which I don't know many other folks who are thinking about that in some ways though will be able to save money because we won't have to buy any convenience foods that we can make from scratch. So I think that will will more likely offset some of the things like our gas is probably going to go up because we're going to travel more. Our heating bills might go down a little bit. Natural gas is so expensive here but we might have time to go out and get more wood ourselves and so be able to offset some of that. So there are definitely things that are going to change but it's going to feel pretty similar overall to our lifestyle right now just without work paying for a lot of our travel like we're right now able to tack on days here and there to different trips and that's obviously going to go away so some of those things we're going to have to pay for. But the the cut in half point is that we've built a budget that we feel like we could cut it in half, spend half of what we plan to spend and still be okay like not have as amazing a life but still be able to do some fun things like where we live. We can get out and hike and climb and paddle and bike and do a whole bunch of things without having to spend any money other than maybe just like little parts here and there on. On bikes or things like that. And then we for next year took the big step of buying our first mid-week ski pass which is pretty cheap. And so we can ski a ton for not nearly as much as people pay if They just come up for the day or for a weekend. So there's still plenty we can do even if we're living at a super low budget.
896 - 921 Jonathan Mendonsa One of the things I'd like to talk about with you Tanya is your idea of early retirement. Now Brian I focus more on this idea of financial independence here. But early retirement is a reality for many people in our community. And since you've been writing about this for three years my understanding is that your mindset towards that concept really shifted. How did you view early retirement what was the goal when you started this blog when you started this journey and how do you view the idea of early retirement now.
921 - 1062 Tanja "Mrs. Our Next Life" Hester Yeah it's been a real evolution for us and one that I think has been pretty surprising and it's made me realize most of us have that hard wiring to really just want what we can't have. And I think five six years ago when we were first formulating our plan or than even three or four years ago when we were really stepping it up we were so stressed out by work it was so much travel. So many long hours all nighters things like that. We just wanted the opposite of that. And the opposite of that to us was never having to work again. And so we built our financial plan around that idea of never needing to rely on an earned income again. And that's still true. We've still hit those numbers and so assuming that we don't have some catastrophic financial disaster the likes of which the world has never seen we never will need to rely on outside income. But the interesting thing and I actually credit the blog with this is that this process of getting closer has made us realize that there are parts of work that we actually really like. There are parts of work that we're going to miss and there are things that we really enjoy doing and some of those things are just knowing that we're having an impact on people's lives in a positive way is something that we don't want to give up and so we plan to volunteer a lot but not just in sort of like a go walk the dogs at the shelter kind of way. All that's important and everyone should go do that. But really trying to use some of the skills that we have and be almost like coaches for nonprofits and help them operate at maximum efficiency or help their boards of directors do really solid work because those are things we've been able to do at work. So that's something we were thinking about doing more at first but then we realize you know what we actually might even earn some money doing this job and that's ok that'll help be a bit of a release valve on taking the pressure off of our portfolio so that we still have some wiggle room even if the markets are having a stretch of anemic years. But more importantly it's just been realizing that like it's so easy to look at everything that stresses us out at work and group all that stuff together and we've realized that it's still worth breaking that stuff apart and thinking like OK this whole set of paperwork might be something I don't enjoy or the long hours might be too much or having to always be reachable on the weekends like that might not be sustainable. But that doesn't mean it's all bad and things like for me writing or presenting are things that I love and will totally miss. And so we've been thinking more and more about how we can keep doing that to a much much lesser extent but do some of that in retirement in a way that will pay us a little bit like enoughto just maybe splurge here and there or take some of that pressure off the portfolio. But we'll also really just kind of scratch a deeper itch something that we love doing and don't want to totally give up.
1062 - 1074 Jonathan Mendonsa Don't you think that early retirement is conceptually different from the idea of just I guess regular retirement or retirement at this regular age where you have this massive 30 or 40 year window that you're trying to figure out what to do with it.
1074 - 1153 Tanja "Mrs. Our Next Life" Hester It's so funny because I think for a concept that's actually as socially new as retirement we seem to have these very fixed ideas about it as a society like retirement wasn't even really a thing for most people until the New Deal. So that's less than 100 years ago which in terms of human history is the blink of an eye. So the idea of quitting at 65 that was invented by the actuaries who said if we set the point for social security here this is the point at which we can keep it solvent you know way back when we designed that stuff. So it's funny that the age of 65 has taken on such meaning to all of us at this point when you're supposed to retire and that retirement is going to be sitting in your recliner and watching game shows or fishing or sipping umbrella drinks. You know I think traditional retirement is definitely something that looks very different for different people a lot of people second act and do cool volunteer work or start their own consulting businesses or do entrepreneurship. And it feels like there is no reason why we actually need to think of early retirement is any different from that it's just on a different timeline and obviously the money behind it is different cause you don't have all the tax advantaged vehicles behind it to retire early the same way you don't have government health care like Medicare. That kicks in earlier although that could change certainly in upcoming decades although it's not looking good at the moment but that feels to me like the only real difference. It's sort of like we're having the whole discussion about retirement and not trying to break out early retirement as this completely distinct thing.
healthcare, socialsecurity, tax
1153 - 1185 Jonathan Mendonsa I think what's so fascinating to me is in my mind our community is redefining retirement that we have a very small community. But there's there's almost a battle being fought for what that word actually means and on the one side you have this this kind of stick in the mud type mindset where it means you're not allowed to do anything you're not allowed to earn income if you're retired. That means that you're retired. And I think that what I see in your case and in my case and in many of the people in our community it's not what are you returning from but it's what are you retiring to and that becomes the new question and it's a much more exciting framework in my mind.
1185 - 1216 Tanja "Mrs. Our Next Life" Hester Oh I couldn't agree more. And it's so funny because I don't think any 70 year olds who are working have to answer this question of Are you really retired or not. And I don't know how many early retired people in real life have to answer it. It feels like one of those blog echo chamber type questions that retirement police like to bring up. But yeah absolutely it's like if I started realizing that hey I want to keep writing this blog and I might monetize it in some way. The idea that that might now mean I'm not retired. It's just ridiculous. Like I believe really strongly that retirement is whatever we make it. And if we want to call ourselves retired than we're retired.
1216 - 1238 Jonathan Mendonsa You talk about a concept called the freedom to fail on your blog. And I'd love to hear you explore that. I think there's so much value there both for the people that are working towards FI and have not retired. And for the people that have already reached FI and have exited the workforce and are now pursuing this passion project I'd love to hear your take on this concept of the freedom to fail.
1238 - 1321 Tanja "Mrs. Our Next Life" Hester Absolutely. It's it's interesting I presented the Lola retreat which was a retreat about money for women held in Portland back in August. And one of the questions that came up was how is early retirement different from just starting to work for yourself. And it was funny because I had never really thought about it but I kind of realized in that moment like it's not that different it's just a sequence difference. So it's like some people might be comfortable having very little savings and quitting a traditional job and going out and starting some venture that they don't need to make them rich but they hope will at least cover their expenses. That has never been me. I'm a safety blanket. Big safety net kind of person. So it's sort of similar but it's just a different sequence so we saved up all the money first and then now we get to go out and try these different things. And it's an incredible gift that if I want to try to write a book I can try to write a book and if it fails oh well. Like that was fun. It doesn't have to actually make me any money or pay any bills. And I think that that is one of the best parts of early retirement is that we can try all this different stuff. But like if it doesn't pan out financially no big deal as long as you didn't throw all your investments at making it work. Then you're still fine and then you can try the next thing. But that to me is one of the things that makes me feel so incredibly lucky to get to do this and almost like I'm sure you guys agree. We are some of the luckiest people in human history for getting to buy our way into all this leisure time and this time to try different stuff that just gets us fired up and makes us feel excited to get out of the bed in the morning.
1321 - 1368 Brad Barrett There's no question about it. I feel that every single day. I mean we really aren't as fortunate as anyone in human history. That's a great way of putting it I never thought about it on that grand of a scale. But you're absolutely right. And it's shocking to me how negative some people can be about this early retirement whereas if you just kind of reframe it like you did which is at least I always talked about the financial independence aspect. It's buying back decades of my life to be able to do what I want and to have the freedom to as you said you can try all the stuff you can fail you can do whatever you want. I mean that's just a wonderful wonderful position. I am curious have you seen any personal blowback in your life. Have you told family your friends about your early retirement plans and what have people's opinions been.
1368 - 1494 Tanja "Mrs. Our Next Life" Hester We have I think just extraordinarily supportive and wonderful friends and family. And so we haven't gotten any blowback. We've gotten nothing but support you know a few folks who maybe don't know us quite as well have said things like well what do you think you'll do. Sort of that implication that I think we've all heard of like is there a chance you might be bored. I think the folks who know us well know that I am congenitally incapable of being bored. I'm just curious and interested in too many things. So if one hobby or something doesn't pan out I'll just move on to the next one. But I've heard from lots of readers over the years who have had trouble with friends or family around them not being supportive or spouses not being supportive. And so it's for sure a phenomenon out there. But I really do think it's impacted by how you present it and how you talk about it. And I think for us we've always had a really strong why behind it. And I don't know if you guys are familiar but I love when Elon Musk talks about the Mars projects that he's working on. He has this really incredible Why which is he said something like all of this work I've done all these billions of dollars I've made. This will only have been worth it to me if I can make humans and interplanetary species. And that's a cool why that is not my Why but I think for us what I would say for that is like what will have made it worth it. If we can ultimately leave the world a better place than we found it if we can make a positive impact on people and that's something that I think comes through when we talk about this that we talk about not just wanting to like sit around and live a hedonistic lifestyle although like who knows there could be some of that. But we talk a lot about wanting to volunteer more or wanting to be able to work for the types of organizations that can't afford to hire our companies. But we'd still like to be able to help them or you know just writing the blog. I feel like it started as a documenting My own personal journey that has turned into something that I do feel like it's helping some people which is a really wonderful feeling. And so I think sharing that motivation with people I do think others out there when they tell the story they feel like oh it's such a foreign concept to folks that I want to tread lightly here and not share a lot and just sort of say like we want to quit our jobs. But I think that's underselling it like I think actually talking about your why and talking about what you're retiring to and what your purpose is really helps people get it and be much more supportive. So I I really encourage folks to talk about it that way.
1494 - 1497 Jonathan Mendonsa It's like I'm channeling myself talking to you it's amazing.
1497 - 1501 Brad Barrett That was freaking amazing.
1501 - 1534 Jonathan Mendonsa Now obviously you have a very friendly audience here. But this is a question that I know Brad and I have both been on the other side of. And I'm curious to get your take on this. What do you do when people ask you what are you going to do with all your free time. Aren't you going to be bored. Now I'll just set this up by saying that Brad and I have come to the conclusion more and more that it's not. What am I going to do with my free time but how did I ever have time for a nine to five. Because when you spend all this time being intentional and coming up with a game plan you start filling that gap with things that add value to your life. What are your thoughts on that. Do you agree or disagree.
1534 - 1588 Tanja "Mrs. Our Next Life" Hester Oh I already feel that way. And I'm still working. And we've also had the types of jobs that have been more than nine to five so I think we're going to probably fall very quickly into this feeling but in an even more acute way perhaps because yeah I think we've recognized for a while now as we've started to build out that dream last or like what are all the things we want to do when we quit and realize like we're not going to get through all of this stuff even without jobs even with the means to be able to pursue these wacky ideas are still probably not going to see every country in the world and climb all the mountains we want to climb and do all these like zany ideas we have like go to central casting and get to be cast in Extras and sound like terrible action movie and have a garden. And so our clothes like and and and all the stuff so I think we're going into it with an attitude of like here's a whole bunch of stuff we'd love to do. But also really try to keep the future open so we can just stumble into new adventures and see where life takes us.
1588 - 1593 Jonathan Mendonsa I love the idea that you shared on the Mad Fientist podcast about the idea of the endless winter.
1593 - 1625 Tanja "Mrs. Our Next Life" Hester Oh yeah we are still debating what kind of recreational vehicle we want to get. But yeah we have this idea of being able to do kind of the reverse of like surfers who do the endless summer and follow summer around the globe and get to surf everywhere when the swells are big. We want to be able to drive all over and basically just follow the winter south go ski and South America ski really wherever the snow is falling but do like a whole year following the snow and it sounds really fun. Ask me again about halfway through if I'm still into that much cold for that long. But it's something we definitely want to try.
1625 - 1635 Jonathan Mendonsa I remember that you stated that you guys keep your house at 55 degrees. Is that something you're still doing. Have you been able to maintain that.
1635 - 1710 Tanja "Mrs. Our Next Life" Hester Yeah but we still do that. It is something that was a huge awakening when we left L.A. and moved up here to Tahoe. The first natural gas bill we got and our house is not huge. It's not a teeny little minimalist house it's about 1800 square feet. But the first heating bill we got in the winter was $500 and you can just imagine like the shocked reaction that we had. And so we very quickly said like OK we've got to scale this down. And I think that was only heating the house to maybe like 63 or 64. So not superbalmy by any means but we started experimenting with how low we could go and we really realized that you know what you can always throw on more clothes. So there have been days where we're sitting working at our desks and we're both wearing clean socks fleece pants like a sweater with a big robe over it a hat and sometimes fingerless gloves too which I know sounds a little bit extreme and then is crazy because we're also people who've spent like a thousand dollars on a single meal once in our lifetime. So we know we're a bit of a contradiction in that we're not crazy frugal on all counts but we do think of ourselves as environmentalists So realizing that we could save natural gas and save money at the same time. It became sort of like a fun challenge of how cold can we deal with. And I will totally confess to you guys we do have some days are like this is just too cold and we'll turn it up to like 60 and then we'll see if we can be a little tougher and the next day.
1710 - 1720 Brad Barrett When you're talking me through that picture of you guys sitting there with hats and coats and these fingerless gloves now that you're not anonymous you have to put that on the website. How fantastic Would that be.
1720 - 1725 Tanja "Mrs. Our Next Life" Hester Ok deal. Once once we get into full winter here I will. I'll work on a picture for you guys.
1725 - 1757 Brad Barrett Nice. I cannot wait to see it. And I just wanted to go back real quick to you. You know the question about aren't you going to be bored in retirement. And I hear that one quite often and it just it always bothers me. It's like the ultimate limiting belief and you have literally the whole world. You could do anything you can learn languages you can learn to cook. You could pick up some new sport that you've never done you could do anything. Read a thousand books a year. I mean you could do anything you want. How could you conceivably be bored. It just is baffling to me.
1757 - 1905 Tanja "Mrs. Our Next Life" Hester I have a bit of a theory on this just because I've now gotten quite a few letters from folks who have actually experienced that and many of them have actually gone back to work. And my belief is that it stems not from the lack of possibility out there. And you know maybe in some cases it does come from that limiting belief but I think it's it's more that it's very easy to spend your focus in planning for early retirement on looking at like what are the numbers I need to hit. What's my budget. Well the financial stuff but I'm sure you guys feel the same way. Like the math is actually the really easy part of all this. You have to do some learning at the beginning there's a learning curve but then you sort of figure out the basics and it's not that hard. It's not rocket science. The hard part is figuring out like what is it that you want out of life what are the things you want to prioritize because I also think an environment where there's no structure. It can be very easy to just let the days and weeks and months slip by without accomplishing anything. So you do have to figure out like what is the right structure for you to make sure that you're achieving the things that are important to you. But I think a lot of folks just don't put that thought in. And I think something else that I've heard from folks we're about to head into this so we'll see if this plays out for us. But like the transition can be emotionally harder than a lot of people anticipate losing that identity of work or losing even just that feeling of like people coming to you and asking for you to make decisions or asking for your input on a project like losing that and all of a sudden feeling like hey no one in the world actually cares what I have to say or what I think. I think that can be very damaging to people's self-esteem or their self image. And so that's one of the reasons why I push so hard on the blog for people to do that thought in advance. Mentally prepare yourself and also to figure out how to have what I started calling chapter overlap so that you don't have let your life before retirement. And then you have your life after retirement and there's nothing in those two things that cross over except maybe the people you know. So that's why for me I have been so thrilled that the blog has become such a great thing because this is something I'm doing now. It's something I'm going to do after and I'm going to have some sense of continuity that will carry me through so I don't wake up one day and go like oh my god what do I do today. I have a thing that will keep me going even if I feel a little bit aimless or rudderless on other stuff I'll still have that one big piece. And I think folks could achieve that any number of ways you could have a volunteer gig that you keep doing that may ramp up after you quit. I do think it's important to give yourself time and space to recover or to detox from work to just figure out like what are the things that pique your interest once work isn't in the way anymore. But having some little thread of continuity I really believe is a big helpful thing. And just again like doing that thinking in advance of preparing yourself for when the work is gone and the upsides of work disappear along with the downsides.
1905 - 1972 Brad Barrett You know we talk about that mental preparation here on the podcast quite often it's such a crucial point and I'm glad you brought it up. I also love that idea of continuity. That's something that I had never fully considered and I think that's something hopefully the audience is really taking note of. But as far as mental preparation goes we'd like to say it's important to game out just all kinds of different possibilities in the future like even a market crash right. Like it's coming at some point a market correction whatever you want to talk about. But if you can prepare yourself mentally for how you're going to react try to really think through how that's going to feel emotionally and it's very similar to this when you actually pulled the FI trigger is think through. Like you said what do you get value out of. I personally never derive any real satisfaction from my job. Honestly I'm like I never felt terribly important or anything but I know to your point many people do and ok that's going to go away. So X Y and Z. Where am I going to get that from. I think I think these are all crucial crucial points so. And again to your point the math is the easy part. It's the what am I going to do with my life. What is my life going to look like and how am I going to feel psychologically. On the other side. So I think those are all wonderful wonderful points.
1972 - 2064 Tanja "Mrs. Our Next Life" Hester I couldn't agree more with all of that and I think it helps in my case that I have had several jobs and side hustles over the years that have been safety related. So I was a lifeguard. I was a camp counselor. I was an EMT for like five seconds and have done jobs where you have to do disaster drills. And I think that that's a really useful way to think about finances. I think that's true for everyone not just people in the F-I space community but thinking about like OK we know a recession is going to come like let's think through OK what what might that look like. What steps might we take. And of course when the real thing comes it might all play out in a completely different way. But there is just value to preparing yourself for that and going through some of the motions it's like where we live. We have wildfires and earthquakes and so others have hurricanes or tornadoes or other different possible disasters thinking through how you might operate in those moments. Cell phones might go down. Then what will you do when you can't just call or text people you need to get in touch with do you have a meeting place what will you take with you if you if you evacuate quickly. All of those exercises make us mentally stronger. But I think for things like early retirement they they really are so crucial because then you have a little bit of a reservoir of calmness to draw on when when the bad stuff happens and you can react more rationally and not let it throw you off your game. And I think I'd apply that same thing to some of the stuff that you lose though. Like even if you don't love your job or you don't feel like there's anything positive you don't feel important like there might still be some things in there that you're getting out of it in the form of validation or just getting to use certain skills you have. So it's at least worth asking that question and figuring out like OK when this goes away how might that feel. What will that look like. I just think those are all really good questions we should all be asking ourselves.
2064 - 2080 Brad Barrett Jonathan Man we are getting so many gems here. I mean disaster drills. That's the quote that I'm going to use forever on this project. So Tanya thank you whenever I go into my little spiel here of game planning out or whatever it's just disaster drills from now on. So that was.
2080 - 2081 Tanja "Mrs. Our Next Life" Hester Hash tag disaster drill.
2081 - 2148 Brad Barrett That is fantastic. So the other thing I wanted to mention I know just personally from the other side of FI is that I know myself and I think humans generally create progress in their lives. And just seeing incremental improvement and I know I've focused for so long on the mental aspects of things but now I'm actually in post FI I'm focusing on physical things interestingly enough I am basically starting out as a brand new beginner at both CrossFit and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. So it's like I basically picked the two most difficult things I could find. I'm like I'm starting at basically day zero but it's probably a 10 year journey for maybe each of them for me to be really really good. But that's something now I have the time and effort to put into it. And it's just I can't tell you how rewarding it's been psychologically certainly with the jujitsu to just see my progress this first year. And I think that's something if I could definitely highlight to you personally and like find something where you can get those tangible items of progress and you see that on a daily weekly monthly basis. It's worked for me and I would certainly recommend that to both you and to the community at large.
2148 - 2235 Tanja "Mrs. Our Next Life" Hester I love that. And good for you. I think it's so hard for people to take on things that are difficult. Like we just gravitate as humans toward the things that come easily to us. And I think it's why so many folks just have a really hard time stepping outside their comfort zone and trying different things. So I really admire that that you took on stuff that was so tough. I mean just objectively. But also you know coming into it as an adult it's funny. I taught yoga for 10 years in L.A. That was my big side hustle that I eventually had to give up because work travel just got to be too much. But teaching yoga in L.A. which I think is thought of as like the capital of yoga and the world is something that I think gives you this glimpse into a weird human phenomenon which is again just that idea of like staying away from things where you don't feel naturally good at it because there are so many perfect yoga looking people there who come into beautiful poses and make it all look easy. That I think it makes it extra intimidating for folks who are just like regular people who might want to use it as a form of exercise or a form of stress reduction or relaxation. But I admired most not the students who looked so perfect and could do the most jaw dropping poses but the ones who had to struggle a little bit the ones who came in and were willing to suck at it sometimes like those to me were the people I admired most. And I think kudos to anyone who's willing to get that far out of your comfort zone and willing to maybe look a little silly sometimes or I'm just at the very least like bruise your ego a bit. But those are the best things in life because you can actually see that progress and make a break during that stuff that feels so much better than just pursuing the stuff that comes easily.
hustle, travel
2235 - 2273 Jonathan Mendonsa This ties so nicely to this idea of how to achieve a successful retirement the United States is particularly guilty of tying your identity to your job. I think that's what all of us have touched on. In fact every single time I meet somebody and I find myself asking them hey what do you do for a living. I want to slap myself in the face because I hate that I've bought into that construct but sometimes it's just the easiest question and I think if you're going to be pursuing this idea of early retirement and financial independence you have to extract your identity from that job that maybe you've been clutching onto for a long period of time. And I know that you've spent some time thinking about what questions do you need to answer in order to achieve early retirement. I'd love to walk through that with you.
2273 - 2274 Tanja "Mrs. Our Next Life" Hester Yeah that sounds great.
2274 - 2280 Jonathan Mendonsa Number one the most important thing is how will you support your family without a job and is that going to change.
2280 - 2353 Tanja "Mrs. Our Next Life" Hester Yeah this is I think probably the place where most people start when they're thinking about early retirement or financial independence is just kind of mapping out an income plan. And I think we're big believers that the 4 percent rule just kind of ball parking is a little too simplistic because you might have different sources of income that kick in at different times and you might for example be counting on Social Security or not. But it's worth actually looking at what your sources of income could be. What you can plan for when they might kick in. And so we have a graphic mapped out where until 2028 about 10 years into early retirement we're going to be almost wholly reliant on taxable investments along with any other side income we might make. But then after that our rental income will kick in because we'll have the rental mortgage paid off. And so then that will take a bigger share of the taxable income will shrink a little bit and then after Mark turns 60 then we'll start tapping into our 401k which are pretty overstocked at this point. So we should be able to really increase our spending at that point in time. So it really changes over time where our income is coming from and it's not as straightforward as just looking at the 4 percent rule doing 25 x and calling it a day but it's worth really everybody thinking about that and your specifics will certainly be different from ours. But figuring out how they how they play out over time what those amounts look like and and all of that to make sure you have a solid plan.
401k, socialsecurity, tax
2353 - 2365 Jonathan Mendonsa That is essentially just coming up with a drawdown strategy. It's just how you know you spend all this time talking about how to accumulate this wealth. But once you get on the back end of that it's the decumulation phase right. It's the drawdown strategy.
2365 - 2396 Tanja "Mrs. Our Next Life" Hester Yeah absolutely. And like in our case there will be some drawdown on taxable. Those may very well get fairly close to zero before we hit 60. But then the rental income is certainly you know that's that's a asset that will deplete itself the same way. And then if we do it right are tax deferred investments we hope to still have a good chunk when when we move on so that we can leave a big legacy behind. But yeah absolutely it's actually nothing about just the saving but then how these investments actually pay you back.
savings, tax
2396 - 2407 Brad Barrett So just to be clear you do not intend to access any of your tax deferred items your 401Ks IRAs until you're at least 59 1/2. Based on what you just said right.
401k, ira, tax
2407 - 2513 Tanja "Mrs. Our Next Life" Hester Yeah I know we're we're total weirdos in that regard. And it's not to say we're never going to do a single dollar in back door Roth conversion but we're planning as much as possible to leave that money alone for a bunch of reasons like one. We feel like right now while we're still young we can travel in a little bit more rugged fashion if we're staying in hostels on squeaky rubber coated mattresses like it's not the end of the world will be fine. So we can travel a little cheaper. We also feel like right now we're still healthy so while of course some crazy freaky health care thing could come around it's less likely now just statistically than it is after 60. So we want to make sure that we have like a big hefty fund sitting there for our later years. And so that's just been part of our underlying philosophy all along is like you know let's treat yourself but like 60 year old us not us now. And obviously we're lucky and actually get to pursue that strategy that doesn't work for everybody else like we've been able to have max out our 4:01 case and save a ton in taxable so that we have this early retirement cushion. But the other thing I'll add that I think is a real benefit of the two phase approach is it creates a whole other safety net where like even if we completely mismanage our money for the first 18 years between Mark being 41 and 59 we still have this other whole pool of funding to fall back on. So we just have to make sure that we can cover our expenses and like earn enough that we can pay our property tax so we don't get our house seized by the state or something like that and then we're going to be OK and we'll have money for later. Like that just to me is something that gives me enormous peace of mind and helps me sleep at night. And I recognize not everybody is a worrier like I am and not everybody needs that. But for those who do I think it's yet another bit of freedom to fail where we can fail at early retirement and it actually doesn't jeopardize our traditional retirement that will still be intact.
health, rothbackdoor, travel
2513 - 2520 Jonathan Mendonsa My wife will be listening to this episode just nodding her head in agreement the entire time. Like what is the backup plan for the backup plan right.
2520 - 2520 Tanja "Mrs. Our Next Life" Hester Totally.
2520 - 2561 Jonathan Mendonsa Yeah that's great to have these contingency plans. I love it we're definitely of the same mind I always try to think of worst case scenarios. It doesn't make for a very healthy psychological moment from time to time. But I think it's important to game these things out. So I love that and I'm curious so you said that the 4 percent rule is simplistic which it certainly is unquestionably. We are now calling it the 4 percent rule of thumb. So it's just like a very general thing but you guys obviously came up with a FI number where how did you calculate the what was it based on some type of percentage was it based. If this is X Y and Z what we need based on our proposed budget you know talk me through where you came up with that number.
health, myfinumber
2561 - 2660 Tanja "Mrs. Our Next Life" Hester This is one of those moments where the fact that we don't share our numbers makes it a bit challenging to talk this through because really what we did is a series of projections that have no easy formula. We built a bunch of Excel sheets we put in different rates of market return and we looked at OK if we want to still have a little bit of money left at the end of Phase one when we're primarily living on taxable. How much do we have to start with. And then similarly a projection of like if we want to have X-amount being able to double our spending taking inflation into account. By the time we hit 60. How much do we need to have saved there is that we then leave alone for 18 years and just like grow and then we just plugged in different numbers until we got to a place where it all worked. So we have a couple of posts that I can send you a link to that show this a little bit better like actually show a sample spreadsheet and what those projections look like. But it's not an easy formula to explain it. It does take some trial and error but you know I also think this is a community of people who love an Excel formula. And so I don't think it's any thing that folks should shy away from it's just worth worth figuring out what your own circumstances are. You know like if you have rental income or some other side income or are you expecting inheritance or you have any other kind of windfall you can sort of plug those in at different points and for us when I talk about our F-I number and primarily really talking about just the taxable savings because we've been above the threshold that we needed in our 401K for almost three years now. And so we keep maxing those we keep saving those just to pad for the future and so that like if we do convert a little bit through back to a Roth we've still got plenty but it's mostly been knowing. OK we have this 18 year period where we have to support ourselves on taxable. So what will that take and that's been just purely an exercise in Excel formulas and projections.
401k, roth, savings, tax
2660 - 2675 Brad Barrett Yeah I love that and we're certainly not looking for a simplistic answer so that makes sense perfectly and yeah we will link all those articles up in the show now so everyone can find that if you head over to choose FI dot com and just click podcast in the upper corner.
2675 - 2683 Jonathan Mendonsa Alright so Tanja I guess specifically what are the different things that people should be thinking about in terms of contingency plans and backup plans for their backup plans. What do you recommend they think about.
2683 - 2760 Tanja "Mrs. Our Next Life" Hester Yeah absolutely. I think a lot of it is similar to things that you should be thinking about at any stage of life financially. So I'm a believer that you should still have some kind of emergency fund even if you have plenty of assets just because the market timing may not always be such that you want to liquidate assets or you might have tax or health care subsidy reasons why you might not want to be selling shares at a given point so having a little bit of cash savings set aside at all times I think is a really smart move. I'm also a big believer in having insurance. So life insurance certainly isn't going to be something that everybody wants. But we both still have term policies we'll have those until we're in our late 50s we'll probably let them lapse at that point but right now we're we're glad to have them. But I think more important for especially high net worth people is to have umbrella insurance. And we're with USA and they told me something really interesting which is that you don't have to buy a big amount what you're really buying with umbrella insurance. Is that your insurance company will mount a full legal defense for you. And so even if you buy only a million dollars which is typically the lowest that umbrella insurance will will insure you for there's still going amount as vigorous a defense as they would if you were insured for 10 million dollars because they don't want to pay out a penny of that. And so that was a really good connection for me to make to realize like OK so you don't have to get like your full networth covered by umbrella insurance what you're really buying is that legal defense and you buy that with the minimum amount. So that's worth considering.
health, healthinsurance, insurance, lifeinsurance, networth, umbrellainsurance
2760 - 2771 Jonathan Mendonsa Wow. Now that is a light bulb moment. Now I have been considering and looking at that and trying to figure out at what point do you add that in. But people love it when I use my words. That's a game changer.
2771 - 2788 Brad Barrett Yeah. And just to be clear the umbrella insurance is very inexpensive I think we pay. We definitely pay under $200 a year for one million dollar policy I think it's somewhere in the vicinity of $150 a year. So very very inexpensive for that type of coverage.
2788 - 2799 Tanja "Mrs. Our Next Life" Hester Yeah it to me it's a bargain for what you're getting in the way of peace of mind and I think especially for us blogging on the Internet. You know like people could potentially come sue us for something we write on the blog please don't.
2799 - 2802 Jonathan Mendonsa Don't even plant that seed.
2802 - 2807 Tanja "Mrs. Our Next Life" Hester Yeah exactly. It's all presented for entertainment purposes only folks.
2807 - 2813 Jonathan Mendonsa The information on this my guest is for entertainment purposes only. Please consult a financial professional before making any serious financial decisions.
2813 - 2851 Tanja "Mrs. Our Next Life" Hester Exactly. Exactly. You know I think I will add to what you said rather that most insurance companies that offer umbrella will require you to have all your policies with them. So there are some costs that are a little bit less visible like you have to get your auto policy and your whatever other policies they might require up to a certain level before they'll add umbrella on. So there might be other costs associated with it but I think all and like to up our other policies to get to the threshold level into that umbrella I think was like 300 dollars a year which is money that I consider very very well spent. I think everyone who's pursuing FI and building up their assets should absolutely consider it. I mean don't even consider it. Just do it.
insurance, umbrellainsurance
2851 - 2895 Brad Barrett Yeah that's a good point about needing multiple insurance policies with with the company and this is certainly not to plug Geico but I just recently switched over to Geico for my auto insurance which was like half of what I was paying previously it it's huge savings. And they did let me get an umbrella policy with them without needing a homeowner's insurance so I just had auto and umbrella with them. And I think to your point I didn't need to up the coverage a little bit but it was just like the underlying liability amounts. And I think I think that when a customer you actually like 20 or 30 dollars per six months so he has somewhere in the vicinity of an extra 50 bucks so yeah very similar to what you're quoting Tanja somewhere in the vicinity of 200 to $300 all in which to me is money very well spent.
insurance, savings, umbrellainsurance
2895 - 2905 Tanja "Mrs. Our Next Life" Hester Yeah and that's great to know that they don't require you to have homeowners think with USA we have like 8 or 9 different policies so we're well covered with them. But it's awesome if there are options out there that let you buy less.
2905 - 2928 Jonathan Mendonsa There's other general things that we've talked about in the past like how are you going to ride out stock market crashes extended recessions we've kind of talked through several of those things before but I really liked that you highlighted the insurance component I think it's very easy to gloss over that. I think the next thing we should talk about frankly is probably the biggest roadblock to the dream of early retirement and that is health care do you want to maybe give us the high level picture on what your perspective on that is.
health, insurance, stocks
2928 - 3083 Tanja "Mrs. Our Next Life" Hester Yeah I mean you guys know I can definitely go on at length about this but I think the big thing is really just the uncertainty that's out there with health care right now is forcing a lot of us to keep a lot more flexibility in the plan that this is to me. The biggest reason why I think the 4 percent rule is insufficient not because the math underlying it doesn't hold up but that the 4 percent rule is based on the idea that you can have level spending over time. And I think that with just not knowing what's going to happen with health care with Medicare with all of it I don't think any of us can assume that level spending over many many decades is realistic. You know even with Medicare I think everybody says like oh we just need to get to Medicare and then we'll be fine like the average Medicare recipients still spends $200000 out-of-pocket on health care in their lifetime. So it's not like Medicare is covering everything. And is this amazing safety net. It covers things and that's good to have. But we all need to be accounting for other potential spending. So I think right now big picture is just keeping our eyes open. We're certainly going to stay on top of developments in policy. But also I think a point that I'd make too is it's worth looking at your own situation whether it's doing some of the calculators on healthcare.gov if you're in a state that doesn't have its own exchange or if like us you're in a state like California that has its own state exchange you can do different calculations and actually figure out what your subsidy might potentially look like. You can project what your out-of-pocket healthcare costs might be and look at what your out-of-pocket Max will be and that may tell you some useful information like if you play around with different income numbers you might find that by raising your income a little bit you're leaving a very large healthcare subsidy on the table. And that to me is a big benefit of looking really closely at things like tax loss harvesting where I think all of our listeners here know what that is but like if you're your shares dip you can sell some some shares in a fund and buy another similar find but then lock in that loss and it gives you capital loss which might be helpful in a tax sense. But what that also does is it lowers your cost basis in those shares. So then later when you sell them you have proportionally more capital gains there which is counted directly as income in your AGI which is how health care subsidies are calculated and that extra bit of income might cost you a big healthcare subsidy like in our case what we're looking at for next year is to get about a $600 per month reduction in our health care premiums and that's huge like $7000 a year that we'd be giving up to save a little bit of money in taxes is for sure not worth it to us. So this is not to say don't tax last harvest but just don't take it as a given that your tax minimisation strategy is necessarily going to be the best thing across the board. It's worth also accounting for health care.
health, lossharvesting, tax
3083 - 3085 Jonathan Mendonsa It can't be simple can it.
3085 - 3093 Tanja "Mrs. Our Next Life" Hester No of course not. No. None of this is simple. But the good thing is like all of us doing this we're all smart people who like to dig into a little bit of math. So it's fun to have a couple extra things to have to think about right.
3093 - 3104 Jonathan Mendonsa Are you saying that the joys of our health care system feeds into the financial independence community need to optimize their Excel spreadsheets. Because I approve of that message.
3104 - 3107 Tanja "Mrs. Our Next Life" Hester Yeah. Yeah let's go with that message.
3107 - 3135 Brad Barrett Hey Tanya I'm curious mechanically how this works for the early retirees. So in 2017 you both are either working a full year or pretty darn close so your income is going to be your normal income. But then in 2014 once you pulled your FI trigger your income is going to be close to zero. How does that work for this. The $600 per month subsidy as you mentioned. Like how do you mechanically go about saying hey look I'm retired and my income is zero.
3135 - 3284 Tanja "Mrs. Our Next Life" Hester So the way that the exchange based plans work is you have to either sign up during open enrollment which is each fall and heads up to folks who are thinking of signing up for next year that the open enrollment period has been shortened this year. And also they're going to do maintenance on healthcare.gov on Sundays. So you have many fewer days than usual you have to sign up by December 15th. So don't forget really important. So you either have to sign up during open enrollment or if you lose your job mid year then that's considered a qualifying event just like it would be for any health care. And then you can sign up at that point. But the way that the system is built under the Affordable Care Act for as long as it survives until the next thing comes is that you project forward. So you have to guess what your income is going to be in the next tax year. And if you lose a job mid-year you have to figure out like make a guess for what your income will be for that whole year. And it's based on AGI which is adjusted gross income. It's essentially everything minus any IRA or 401K contributions but it doesn't take into account standard deduction it doesn't take into account mortgage interest charitable. Any of that stuff. So it's like the whole deal everything that counts is taxable income and then you get your health insurance based on that. They just essentially tell you based on what your taxable income is what your subsidy will be. And then you can choose if you want like a high deductible plan a lower deductible plan gold plan Bronze all that stuff. Silver plans are the most heavily subsidized so those are a good bet to go with for early retirees or really anyone who is going to get a benefit of help with their premium. And then at the end of the year when it's tax time then you square up and reconcile so like if you earned more than you thought then you have to pay a little bit of that subsidy back. But if you hit it right on the nose then you don't. And that's where early retirees are in a really good position because most of us know exactly what are our taxable income is we know the dividends we've gotten. We know how much we've taken out and how much capital gains is there. And so I suspect a lot of us who are going to be doing this approach will each December be looking at OK how much have I earned. Do we have a little bit more room in the cap that might be a place or redo a little bit of backdoor Roth conversion just to make sure that we get all the way up to that level and take advantage of every penny and then you know if you have a year where you earn a little bit of extra aside income like I consider that a good problem to have I would rather pay some of that money back but have extra money that we've earned. So you know I know some folks out there are hardcore tax avoiders we are not we believe in taxes so we don't mind if we end up having to pay some of it back. But I think the whole thing just makes it so much easier to budget for us so it's worth doing some of that gaming things out before you proceed.
401k, healthinsurance, ira, rothbackdoor, tax
3284 - 3292 Jonathan Mendonsa Talking about gaming things out. Is it one of these is it if you're dollar over you lose the entire subsidy or is it a graduated reduction in the subsidy.
3292 - 3340 Tanja "Mrs. Our Next Life" Hester There are different step levels in it. There is definitely a point at which you lose it all. For us for a family of two in Calif.. That level is around $70000 which we will be earning way less than that. But if you're in that ballpark. Yes there is a point where you lose it all. But for most levels in between and again this varies a bit by state. Some states have Medicaid expansion which raises eligibility level. I won't bore you guys with all those different thresholds because there's plenty of good stuff out there online and on our blog and on the Kaiser Family Foundation and on root of good. He has a great post on the subsidy cliffs that you can kind of game out based on where you think you're going to fall and then it's worth just going a couple of steps above that. And look at OK if we added $5000 if we had a $10000 like what does that do. And in most it's going to be fairly graduated. Until that cliff level and then that's just going to vary by state and by family size.
3340 - 3351 Jonathan Mendonsa I just have imagined Brad that we have like these the subset of like ultra optimizers that in the middle of December are looking at how they can capitalize that last $137 and 86 cents.
3351 - 3354 Tanja "Mrs. Our Next Life" Hester I'm sure it happens.
3354 - 3360 Brad Barrett I mean this is an area of your policy expertise so I'm assuming based on how you're describing all of this right.
3360 - 3374 Tanja "Mrs. Our Next Life" Hester I would say not directly but it's something that I've touched a bit in my work and it's something that I've taken a much deeper interest in so I definitely am that nerdy person who reads the text of the bills and goes through all the different health care analysis that's out there.
3374 - 3383 Jonathan Mendonsa We found someone Brad in the FI community that also has read the documents. This is perfect. I am selfishly interested in continuing this conversation.
3383 - 3387 Tanja "Mrs. Our Next Life" Hester Well I haven't read like the prospectus on VTSAX or any of those so.
3387 - 3391 Jonathan Mendonsa There are plenty of other people that have done that.
3391 - 3393 Tanja "Mrs. Our Next Life" Hester I'll take care of the health care stuff for us.
3393 - 3397 Brad Barrett Thanks so yeah. To be continued on the health care on a future episode for sure.
3397 - 3403 Jonathan Mendonsa Tanja do you think there's a full 60 minutes there right. That we could dive into and really explore all of it.
3403 - 3440 Tanja "Mrs. Our Next Life" Hester Oh yeah especially if we actually prepped for it and could talk about different state scenarios because I don't know if I sent you this post but the one about. You know all the retirement articles out there they tell you hey here are the great states to move to for retirees and it's all basically just based on income tax which I think is so shortsighted because the states that have no income tax also tend to be like universally horrible on health care. And for most of us like income tax is kind of irrelevant. What's more relevant is property tax and health insurance. And so we can go into the State stuff. We get like yes there is so much to go to optimizing around it kind of policy development how you might do health care abroad like all that stuff.
health, healthinsurance, tax
3440 - 3452 Jonathan Mendonsa Yes we need to do that. Let's lock that down find a date to set that up but then also before we do a geo arbitrage episode like we have to have that episode in place you can't you can't just ignore that and go straight to Geo arbitraged those go hand in hand.
3452 - 3492 Brad Barrett Yeah I agree and that was actually something I was going to ask Tanja about. As far as their future F-I plans but let's save that for the future episode if everyone doesn't mind. I think we've finally found our health care expert. We've had so many people write in to us about hey when are you going to have an episode on health insurance health care in early retirement. And honestly the answer was we have been struggling with this. It's not that we are just blissfully unaware of the import of this certainly but we've been looking for a good answer which unfortunately there is none currently. But we've also been looking for an expert to help us talk through this and I think we've found her. So Tanya thank you.
healthcare, healthinsurance
3492 - 3500 Tanja "Mrs. Our Next Life" Hester I don't always love to call myself an expert but I do think this is something I've spent a ton of time thinking about so I would love to share more of that with you guys and your listeners.
3500 - 3509 Jonathan Mendonsa Yes please reject the expert label but I guarantee you you know just a little bit more about it than Brad or myself. So using the standard definition I think you can qualify.
3509 - 3510 Tanja "Mrs. Our Next Life" Hester OK. Fair enough.
3510 - 3539 Jonathan Mendonsa OK so here's another consideration for you. How will you keep your body in mind healthy you know what's the what's the play there because I think there is this almost path of least resistance where you just find the couch and you do your benders on Netflix and you focus on gaining that 20 to 30 pounds and especially with the self-driving cars. Right Brad I mean pretty at some point time you're not even going to be responsible for your turn signals or your windshield wipers. Basically you're solely going to be responsible for just getting to your car. Just pass out. Go to sleep. The autonomous vehicle fleet just takes over.
health, mindset
3540 - 3548 Brad Barrett That is that is my goal. The autonomous vehicle fleet taking over. That's that's a dream of mine. So again for another podcast.
3548 - 3633 Tanja "Mrs. Our Next Life" Hester Elon Musk is so thrilled with you and I don't think that that's just an F-I or early retirement problem I think that's a human problem and I think evolutionarily if you look at essentially all animals we are wired to do the least amount of physical work possible to conserve our energy and our body fat because you know the winter is coming and we might need to go a long time without eating. So that's just human nature. That's I mean anyone who's had dogs know like dogs will eat every bit of food you put in front of them and they will happily get fat. So this is just a good question we should all be thinking about. But I think it was really something that came into focus for us because we just feel like the last few years of work we've really pushed ourselves so hard that it's had an impact on our health. And then we've heard other folks have written to us and told us how it like after they quit. They slept for basically a year like they slept 14 hours a day for a year or two to make up some of the backlog from what they had acquired through work and like I could see that being us. To be honest. But I think that's important and you need to catch up on sleep. Sleep is super important to health but like you can't only do that. And I think that there is sometimes this tendency to want to detox or you know kind of heal from something and that often involves rest. But it's important to think of self-care as also the physical activity part the healthy eating part. Like I could see us and I won't speak for anybody else out there but I can see us kind of going like oh my gosh we did this huge thing let's celebrate and let's act like total kids and like eat nothing but donuts for a month. We're totally healthy eaters but like we do we do love junk food. We're not those virtuous folks who eat healthy because they don't like the unhealthy stuff. We totally love it.
3633 - 3634 Jonathan Mendonsa Me too.
3634 - 3674 Tanja "Mrs. Our Next Life" Hester But like that's really bad. We can't do that. We can't eat donuts and sit on the couch watching Netflix and expect to live this long healthy life that we're planning out for ourselves and like that list of things on our to do list that cannot happen if we are not able bodied and clear minded. And so it's really important to us that we maintain the health and it's just good for everybody. I think through that plan of like what are you going to do. And one thing I'll add is it's important to you to be realistic. Like if you've never run in your life maybe don't think about running a marathon in all 50 states like your major goal like maybe start small or think about something that actually feels like something in your wheelhouse. But that said if you can be like Brad and like take on CrossFit and like hardcore martial arts good for you it's great to stretch yourself but just keep it a little bit in the bounds of realism.
3674 - 3690 Jonathan Mendonsa Perfect. One of the things that I think of our audience and your community is well we'll be really excited about is finding out what does our next life actually look like. What is a day in retirement going to look like for you and how. What did those social interactions in those social circles actually look like once you've pulled the trigger on this.
3690 - 3751 Tanja "Mrs. Our Next Life" Hester I'll be honest I'm excited to see what that's going to look like too. You know we live in a place in a mountain town where a lot of folks don't work full time so I think we'll have a slightly easier time with this than a lot of folks will. But we've heard from plenty of folks who've said like I was so excited to retire and see people more but then I realize like when I'm free they're all at work and we know from the health data that social interactions are super important to stay healthy that people who become socially isolated tend to die the earliest have the lowest quality of life like a whole bunch of stuff that I know none of us want but I've heard again from plenty of folks who've said they became more isolated after they retired early or like they went into the kind of this self-care mode for awhile after they quit. Just trying to rest up and regroup and kind of figure out what's next. That they didn't pursue those social circles and then when they were ready to get back to them their friends had moved on. Which is so sad. And so I think that's a situation none of us want to find ourselves in which is why it's worth thinking about ahead of time. But I know like we're going to be working really hard to go out and see our friends and ski with them and hike with them and do all that stuff on a regular basis have people over for potlucks and things so that we don't skip a beat there.
3751 - 3753 Jonathan Mendonsa Brad I know this is something that you've struggled with.
3753 - 3824 Brad Barrett Yeah it certainly is something that's been top of mind for me recently. I've realized just as part of FI that one thing that energizes me are these human connections and finding friends finding a community. We've been fortunate enough to have a FI community here in richmond which I'm trying to get everybody together on a more regular basis. But I think tanja you also you need to this is one thing I've struggled with is you need to understand that your at Fi and everybody else isn't right. So for me it's I want to get together with people I had this time I have resources I'd love to do things but people are busy people are tired. It's not that easy and I think I've let that get me down mentally. And I think that's really silly and I've kind of come around to just being realistic about it. Just because I have all this free time clearly doesn't mean that everybody else does. But I think I've also tried to make more of an effort than I ever have in the past. And that helps. And again this is something that I've put a lot of time and thought into. So I'd say just stick with it. It sounds like you have a real cool town there where where people are out and about and doing exciting things. So it should make it a little bit easier. But I think that focus on being realistic is an important thing.
3824 - 3854 Tanja "Mrs. Our Next Life" Hester Yeah and I appreciate you saying that I think I am always onboard with the advice to be realistic. I think it also for a lot of folks probably means finding some new friends whose situation in life more closely matches your own which I think in some cases might mean befriending traditional retirees who are free at the same time or it might mean befriending folks who are a lot younger who aren't in that full time career grind yet or some combination of both We're definitely proponents of having friends of many different ages so that you stay connected to different ideas and grounded in different generational thinking. I think that's really important.
3854 - 3878 Jonathan Mendonsa And we're in this unique situation. In the United States where we're just seeing this surge of momentum in the actual FI community and we're seeing a lot of these relationships and communities go from just the digital space which it's traditionally been you find a small niche a small people of like minds. But we're seeing this really widespread desire to form these communities in local geographic regions and there's enough of us that in large cities and even in some of the smaller cities it's a possibility.
3878 - 3924 Tanja "Mrs. Our Next Life" Hester Absolutely. And I think even if you're in a place where you don't feel like there's anyone locally who shares this mindset like I get a ton out of the friends I've made online and there are people I escape with and people who I meet up with in other forums so I think there are now a lot of great places to find community cross F-I whether it's on some of the forums if you're into that or finding folks who comment on some of the blogs that you enjoy reading most. I heard from some of our readers that they've befriended other folks who commented and they actually now have fruitful friendships outside of our blog like I love hearing that that's really great. There is this idea in at in sort of like the success narrative of now which I'm sure you guys have heard which is something like you are the average of the five people you spend the most time with. Or something like that are you guys familiar with this idea.
3924 - 3927 Jonathan Mendonsa Yeah that's Jim Rohn quote. Yeah.
3927 - 4006 Tanja "Mrs. Our Next Life" Hester You knew where it came from. I did not. I just absorbed it from the ether. It's an interesting notion because I think to achieve F-I that would tend to push you toward finding higher income people or higher achieving people which is great when you're in the accumulation phase. But then it's an interesting contradiction when Brad to your point you get to acgtual FI you're not working and you're FI but then your friends aren't or are still working. And I actually think it's important to think about sort of two tracks perhaps that you've got the folks who push you and who are your aspirational social circle but then you've also got the folks who are maybe in a life circumstance that's a little bit closer to what you want and F-I like our friends here. I'm in Tahoe are our not like power house power couple high earner high achiever folks. They are people who think that life is much more important than money that follow their values that are living the dream like doing amazing stuff but they are not folks who have a ton of money in the bank and those are people who are great for us to hang out with because they aren't looking to spend a bunch of money and go out to you an expensive dinner or they aren't trying to talk us into going on some extravagant trip like they want to go hang out at the park or go on a hike or ski together or do things that are very low cost. And so I think it's worth thinking that point through to you and not just attaching yourself to all these folks where they're going to make you feel guilty for not wanting to spend money or who are going to question your life choices once you get to the point where you're like yeah I have all this freedom but that means I'm not necessarily going to spend on the same thing. You guys are.
4006 - 4038 Jonathan Mendonsa So Tanya this has been a journey for you I would say that you taking the time to commit your ideas and thoughts to the blog that you've been writing for the last three years. Even if nobody had read it would have been a way for you to submit ultimately what a successful retirement looks like. I think there's definitely value to just committing your ideas to paper. But I'm curious for you on the back side of this journey you are at FI and you are now living our next life. And how do you evaluate success how do you evaluate your self-worth. Post-career.
4038 - 4110 Tanja "Mrs. Our Next Life" Hester This is something I've thought a lot about but I would say I do not have answers on this. I expect this fully to be a journey I think for me it's really important to feel like I'm able to have an impact in my community and I think that before we started the blog I probably would have defined that more in terms of like the nonprofits and folks in need here where we live. I think now I see it more as as both the in-person community but also this online community that I feel so fortunate to be a part of and and thinking about that. But you know like that could change too. Who knows if anybody's going to want to read blogs about F-I in two or three years like maybe everybody will be doing this it'll be a foregone conclusion and we won't have to talk about it anymore. Let's all hope. But I think it's a really important question for folks to have in mind and also to try to think about like what are the ways that we can feel successful without having titles without having money without I always talking about gold stars because I am totally like the Lisa Simpson who wants praise for everything. But when that goes away like how do we find out within ourselves or how do we find other ways to get it. Yeah. I do not have answers yet but it's something that I'm in close attention to and continuing to think and write about because I think it's a really important piece of all this and how we feel like we're living a worthwhile life without sort of the traditional construct of what that means without that work piece.
4110 - 4114 Jonathan Mendonsa I feel like there's going to be a blog article called How do you define success. That's coming.
4114 - 4123 Tanja "Mrs. Our Next Life" Hester They're probably like three versions of that already that I probably like have already changed my thinking. Because that's how it goes. Well
4123 - 4147 Brad Barrett yes certainly. Tanya based on how much fun this conversation was I know I had an absolute blast. We are unquestionably going to have you back on for the health care and then hopefully maybe a year from now we'll talk about what your life does look like post FI and how you've defined yourself I think that would be a fascinating journey just to see this first episode and then see where you went because like you said you simply don't know where it's going to go.
4147 - 4149 Tanja "Mrs. Our Next Life" Hester I'm excited to come back. Thanks for offering.
4149 - 4151 Brad Barrett Yeah you bet. Anytime.
4151 - 4160 Jonathan Mendonsa Alright Tanya Well that concludes the main portion of this interview. Before we let you go we really want to give you a chance to tackle the hot seat. Have you heard our hot seat yet. Do you know what's coming.
4160 - 4162 Tanja "Mrs. Our Next Life" Hester I have. Is it music time.
4162 - 4163 Jonathan Mendonsa It is music time.
4163 - 4167 Brad Barrett Oh you bet.
4167 - 4195 Speaker In a world drowning in debt and rampant consumption. Trapped by the chains of lifestyle inflation. These questions highlight the secrets of those who are broken free. Welcome to the choose F-I hot seat.
4195 - 4197 Tanja "Mrs. Our Next Life" Hester Can I confess something.
4197 - 4197 Jonathan Mendonsa Please.
4197 - 4209 Tanja "Mrs. Our Next Life" Hester I listen to all my podcasts that 1.5 speed and so I've never actually heard that at normal 1x speed but it sounds so much more dramatic. I feel the pressure.
4209 - 4219 Jonathan Mendonsa Awesome yeah. Brad's a big fan of the 1 5 x. I try but I'm only letting my wife listen to him at the same time and I feel like I can't put her through that ordeal so I normally go back down to one.
4219 - 4222 Tanja "Mrs. Our Next Life" Hester Oh yeah. Mark Can't handle it either he hates it.
4222 - 4226 Brad Barrett Tanya question number 1 your favorite blog that's not your own.
4226 - 4276 Tanja "Mrs. Our Next Life" Hester I am going to do just a couple. And I want to give a shout out to the ladies because I think that it's a misconception that there are very few women in the FI space. I think there are actually quite a lot we just don't always have the loudest voices. But one of my favorites is definitely she picks up pennies. She doesn't write specifically about F-I but writes about a lot of stuff that's peripheral to it and is just so wonderfully thoughtful. And I just love her writing. Maggie who writes northern expenditure is another great one she and her family live in Alaska and they're on a journey to early retirement. Probably that's a little bit slower pace than than some of us but just she's hilarious. Such a good person and I love her posts. And then Kate Flanders is a good friend who writes a lot about things that that touch on some of our values like spending around your values being mindful with your spending. She's HUGE into minimalism but sort of like rejecting the title minimalism. So all great blogs that I highly recommend.
4276 - 4278 Jonathan Mendonsa Question number two your favorite article of all time.
4278 - 4371 Tanja "Mrs. Our Next Life" Hester I'm going to go a little bit off the beaten path here because I really respect all the folks who've laid out the financial fundamentals but it's probably not shocking to hear that I value them mindset and the journey stuff a little bit more. There is a blog called The resume gap written by Matt that I absolutely love. He and his partner are traveling the world right now so they've been a little too busy to blog much lately. But he was able to hit F-I in his mid 20s. I'm not even joking. And he wrote a wonderful post called Don't press fast forward on your life about not being so focused on the next thing that you kind of miss out on your life now. And I just think he's a wonderful writer such a thoughtful guy. Crazy nice in person. I love him and hope he gets back to writing more at some point and then one of my posts that I shout out to you is called Don't listen to us bloggers don't tell the full FI story which I think is just a really good kind of reality check for folks who read a lot of F-I blogs because there's kind of a contradiction that all the bloggers that you've heard of that have been big and successful at it who are proponents of living off the 4 percent rule are doing all this stuff like they're all making a bunch of money with their blogs. And so they're not actually testing the plan. They've been out there promoting. And then the folks who are actually living off their plans are generally not continuing to blog about it. So we have a little bit of a disconnect in that the folks we're listening to you as the authorities are not actually practicing what they preach and it's not a criticism of them at all. It's wonderful that they're getting paid for their great blogging work and as they should. You know they're putting a ton of time into this stuff but it's just an important thing for us all to know as we sort of consider the source on this stuff and put our own plans together.
blogger, mindset, travel
4371 - 4380 Jonathan Mendonsa Yeah I think that's very insightful and it's just kind of a good re-orientation when you're absorbing a lot of content especially when you're binge reading it all just to put that in perspective.
4380 - 4400 Tanja "Mrs. Our Next Life" Hester Yeah absolutely Plus you know most of the people were blogging these subjects have started their blogs since the last financial crisis so have only been tracking finances are saving or living in retirement in a really historically long bull market. So there's definitely some recency bias in there as well that's that's just worth taking into account as you plan your own future.
blogger, savings
4400 - 4402 Jonathan Mendonsa All right. Well we will link to both those articles in the shownotes.
4402 - 4405 Brad Barrett All right. Question number three your favorite life hack.
4405 - 4413 Tanja "Mrs. Our Next Life" Hester This will be my shortest answer because it is so easy to answer. But unquestionably favorite life hack is paying ourselves first through automation.
4413 - 4428 Jonathan Mendonsa Yeah that's something that I've used for for years is how I was able to really force myself to pay down my student loans. And it's also something that we've seen highlighted in past episodes talking about low lowering the barrier of entry and just kind of set and forget and your path will dictate itself.
4428 - 4444 Tanja "Mrs. Our Next Life" Hester Yeah I started with two hundred dollars a month going to a savings account and we've now ramped it up to thousands of dollars a month going into investments. We don't even think about it it just happens we never see that money. We never feel like we have it to spend. And that is the single biggest secret of our success is just not even making it a choice.
4444 - 4447 Jonathan Mendonsa All right question number four your biggest financial mistake.
4447 - 4479 Tanja "Mrs. Our Next Life" Hester I don't totally believe in mistakes because I think they do tend to be teachable moments and I think a lot of the stuff we've done over the years like having some years of a lot of spending what we call our Baller years helped us appreciate different things about life that have honed our approach now. But one thing I will confess to is we didn't invest a penny in a Roth IRA when we were below the income cap and so we've been priced out of them for a few years now but we are probably the only early retirees in the world or at least in the U.S. where we have Roths to have not a penny in a Roth. You heard it here first.
ira, roth
4479 - 4481 Brad Barrett The secrets come out. I like it.
4481 - 4490 Jonathan Mendonsa Do we change. Question number four to your biggest teachable moment. Oh come on Brad you got to give me more than that.
4490 - 4494 Brad Barrett And it falls flat.
4494 - 4498 Jonathan Mendonsa All right. Question number five. Advice you would give to your younger self.
4498 - 4531 Tanja "Mrs. Our Next Life" Hester I think just being more intentional about the stuff you buy We're definitely not minimalists. And I think anyone who's been to our house knows that we have an embarrassing amount of outdoor gear in particular because that's so important to us but I think about how much stuff have had to de-clutter and get rid of over the years and knowing especially after I researched it that most of that stuff doesn't get sold to people less fortunate. Most of it actually ends up in the landfill. Even if you are well-intended and donate it to Goodwill. So yeah I think just acquire less crap and be really thoughtful make sure that the things you buy are things you're really going to use for the long term.
4531 - 4533 Jonathan Mendonsa All right. And then we do have a bonus question for you today.
4533 - 4541 Brad Barrett Which might be rather comical based on your last answer but what's your favorite purchase you made on Amazon.com last year.
4541 - 4586 Tanja "Mrs. Our Next Life" Hester I was super torn on this because you know we still do buy a few things and we always try to buy used first if we can but if we think something's going to have value we don't hesitate. We're not like those FI folks who who never shop but it could be either my standing desk that I bought which is super fancy and powered has made my back feel so much better and I love it. The other thing was really cheap. The opposite was the eclipse glasses that we bought to go travel up to the path of totality and see the eclipse. Like that was just so completely life changing please everybody. If you haven't seen a total eclipse Please get yourself into the path of totality for the next one. It's totality or nothing. We drove up to Weser Idaho and stood in a farm field next to a high school and with a big group of folks and it was so amazing.
4586 - 4611 Jonathan Mendonsa That is awesome. We are not in totality we were in what Bradd 75 percent something like 80 some. Yeah and we did not buy the glasses but we made the boxes out of cereal boxes and for about two and a half minutes I could see a crescent moon shape on the backs. Back at the box and then my eyes hurt for the remainder of the day and I wondered if I had done it wrong or if I was going to lose my vision. But it was a thoroughly underwhelming experience.
4611 - 4640 Tanja "Mrs. Our Next Life" Hester Yeah and we got you know we got the entire progression and so up until totality I would say it was like cool but not amazing. So I think most of what everybody else got was sort of in that zone of like OK that's neat but man nothing replaces that moment when you see the moon move in front and you get the diamond ring and then you get the corona and the whole thing like I could fill up a whole episode with just how amazing and life changing that moment was so do yourself a favor. I think that the next eclipse goes a lot closer to you guys so hopefully it'll be easier to get there. But but do it. I promise it's worth it.
4641 - 4655 Jonathan Mendonsa All right add it to the list. Well before we let you go obviously there's a lot of people from your community that are going to hearing this and are going to be very excited to hear your story in person. But aside from that there's going be a lot of people that are going to be discovering our next life for the first time. And what is the best way for people to connect with you.
4655 - 4679 Tanja "Mrs. Our Next Life" Hester Everything that we've got is up on the blog our next life dot com We do social primarily Twitter and Instagram and those are both at our underscore next life. But those are also linked on the blog so that's a great place to find us and then we've got a couple of new podcast projects launching in the next few months that we're super excited about that won't be on FI but there'll be sort of stuff that I think folks in this community will find interesting. That will keep everybody posted on those new things.
4679 - 4686 Jonathan Mendonsa And one other announcement I wanted to make is I know for a fact that you are going to be speaking at fincon which is going to be coming in our way in about a week right.
4686 - 4715 Tanja "Mrs. Our Next Life" Hester Yeah it's just in a couple of days now and I'm actually going to be in two sessions so I got asked to join the fire panel where we're specifically going to be talking about controversial issues in early retirement which I'm super excited about and then I have a session right after that with a bunch of really awesome bloggers including Mrs. Frugal Woods who I know is a community favorite here about how to broaden your audience and reach folks who aren't sort of your natural audience. So really excited about both of those and just chatting with people. I think the best part of fincon is just all the social time.
blogger, fincon
4715 - 4725 Jonathan Mendonsa Yes we look forward to meeting you in person there. Well Tanja thank you so much for coming on the show today and sharing your story. It's just been an absolute blast and really eye opening on several different levels so we appreciate you taking the time for us today.
4725 - 4731 Tanja "Mrs. Our Next Life" Hester Yeah thanks so much for having me and especially letting it line up with our big coming out day super exciting time.
4731 - 4736 Jonathan Mendonsa Not a problem at all. It was our pleasure. And we will see you in just a few days at fincon.
4736 - 4737 Tanja "Mrs. Our Next Life" Hester Thanks guys. Have a good one.

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