083 - Second Generation FI Cody Berman

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6 - 118 Jonathan Mendonsa You're listening to Choose FI radio the blueprint for financial independence lives here. If you're looking to unlock the secrets to financial independence and really retirement you're in the right place Stay tuned and join a community of like minded getting off the hamster wheel and taking control of their lives in the pursuit of financial independence. Choose FI your home for financial independence online. All right guys today we are going to have a long awaited second generation fi conversation. And for those of you that have kind of been listening at the perimeters but haven't realized this is a huge focus of chooseF.I. and of our community is talking about and highlighting the power of capturing these ideas at a younger age. You know it's that what if I knew then what I know now and if it's too late for you to act on some of these principles how powerful would it be to show these to your kids and would if they were as inspired as you are now able to start taking action and to be honest with you in many cases the second generation fire population. These are the early adopters in many cases we tend to latch onto these concepts after we've already made a few big mistakes. But time is the most precious resource that you have and if you can find examples of people that have grabbed these concepts at an earlier age and adopted them and are crushing it due to that adoption then it is incredibly powerful not just for yourself to validate what you already feel but as you're sharing these ideas with your kids to really motivate them and inspire them to take action on these concepts.
118 - 201 Jonathan Mendonsa And there's no one in my mind better to demonstrate how powerful these ideas are than Cody Berman who we actually met at Campfi down in Florida. Now at this event Cody just showed up and blew basically the collective hive minds brains by just talking about how he had practically latched onto these ideas in large part due to his mom Ruth who had really introduced him to the community of fi but then has actually started to take action over and over again on all of these different principles. And Brad who lost his voice at Camp Phai was really over that this was the angriest I had seen him because he couldn't talk to Cody and he was so desperate to kind of engage in this interaction. So he thought we would try to give him a second opportunity today. So to help me with this I have my co-host Brad here with me today. How are you doing buddy. Hey I'm doing great Jonathan and yet I was a good intro and I'm absolutely thrilled to actually speak with Cody today. Yeah. As you described at Camp 5 Cody just stole the show. There's really no other way to put it. And it wasn't like it was in some weird overt way. It was just Cody letting out his his story and his abilities and just who he is. And it's almost hard to explain like I was trying to describe this to my wife Laura after the fact. Cody just became the star. She's like What did he say. And I said honestly it was just his bearing. It was his maturity at this young age.
201 - 278 Brad Barrett We were joking at Camp 5 that if we could buy futures in Cody we easily would. I mean like people would plunk down tens of thousands of dollars to buy a tiny fraction of a future of Cody. Like that's how impressive he was. So anyway with that Cody welcome to the show. We're thrilled to have you here. Hey thanks for having me guys. So this is one of those conversations that we view as this massive opportunity. You know I think it's very easy to grab the people that are in their 30s or 40s. They have this high income salary. Or maybe they're even just on the path and they're just starting to get their job and they're trying to figure out what this optimized Lane looks like because they realize suddenly that there are implications for the next several decades of their life. But I think that a challenge has always been with high schoolers with teenagers and people in the early 20s that you view time as unlimited and because you don't really see any sort of endgame you're not thinking about tomorrow in any way shape or form. It's kind of one of these well I might as well spend everything I earn it's not going to make a difference I have all the time in the world to figure it out. While that is a strategy I think what your story demonstrates is it's probably a suboptimal strategy and if you latch on to some of these principles that we've been trying to highlight you can totally crush the game. Is that kind of your own light bulb moment as well.
279 - 355 Cody Berman Yeah I think so I think realizing that time is your most precious asset and is kind of the beginning of my FI journey from a pretty early age my parents created this culture of my brother and I'm just doing math. We do simple equations like what's two times two. Four was four times for 16. And we just keep doubling it and doubling it until we were in the hundreds of thousands are in the thousands hundreds of thousands. But we just really learned the value of how this money can hop on over time. Obviously it's not 100 percent compound overnight type of thing like the math we were doing. But the rule of 72 using an 8 percent interest rate. Your money is going to double in nine years. And if you can just think about how much power you have when you're putting money away and then nine years from now you don't touch it it's doubling. That's a really really powerful strategy for retiring early and coding for everyone out there can you just very quickly explain the rule of 72. So basically the rule of 72 says that you take the number 72 divided by your interest rate. So I know for example you use 8 percent when you're calculating your compound returns so 72 divided by eight that's nine years. It would take to double if you were expecting a 6 percent return over whatever number of years you'd divide 72 divided by six. That would money would double in 12 years. So it's basically just a rule of thumb see how long it's going to take for your money to double. So there's a gap here.
355 - 440 Jonathan Mendonsa So you're five years old that's when you're kind of exposed this basic math and in fact for many of us that's when we're exposed to some of this basic math. But the connection from being able to multiply two times two or four times four to actually saving money and saving significant amounts of money even as a broke college student that isn't a thread that everybody makes everybody feels compelled to make. Were there any more like obvious moments that really for you solidified that you were going to follow a different path or go down a road less traveled. Yeah definitely. So I think from wherever my earliest age of cognisance was like maybe four I was fortunate enough that the Bank of Dad would actually give me and my brother a hundred percent interest on any deposits we made into our savings account up until the age of 10. So if I got a few hundred dollars from relatives firm birthday money I'd say it was 500 dollars. I put it all away in the bank and magically the next day it was a thousand dollars and I thought that was the coolest thing in the world. And I think that's kind of what started me along this path of just understanding the value of time coupled with money Brad Ann has like one more year of the bank of DAD. Yeah I think I'd go broke with that with her savings rate. She's amazing. She is. She's stocking away a lot of money. So yeah I'm not sure I can do the 100 percent. But yeah maybe 10 or 15. I'm curious if you could talk about the influence of your mom on your faith journey.
Jonathan_Catchphrases, college, savings
440 - 474 Brad Barrett We were also fortunate to meet your mom Ruth at Campfi and she's just an incredible incredible woman. And also just really talented by the way she created this really cool song called The closer I am to FI. I guess there was a piece of an Indigo Girls song closer I am to fine. And it was it was just fantastic. So a huge thank you to her. I was actually singing it to myself the other day it's very catchy but yeah she obviously follows the tenants of FI and I'm curious how that was introduced to you and how overtly or just kind of passively she did that.
474 - 526 Cody Berman Yeah. Are you guys kind of got the backstory from age five to 10 so I guess from age 10 on. And the reason my dad stopped and doubling my money at age 10 was because I actually got my first job then working at my uncle's disc golf course in the snack tax slash lost and found. And that's all. Making five dollars an hour putting all that money away I had no expenses at age 10. I worked that job from about age 10 to age 15. So from high school years when you really start understanding the value of money and when you can kind of really start getting jobs this is where my mom is really teaching me the principles of just saving and frugality. It wasn't until a bit later where we kind of got down the path of financial freedom but I had always been a saver. I had always been someone who try to fix things myself before but something new I'd always buy things used I wouldn't purchase things I didn't have to and I'd always search for the deal.
backstory, frugality, savings, tax
526 - 529 Cody Berman I would get the lowest price on something I possibly could.
529 - 547 Brad Barrett Did your mom present you with any specific financial independence articles. Obviously it sounds like you had a good background in the house. There's this culture of understanding money of understanding numbers and common interest but when was that aha moment with the actual financial independence community.
547 - 569 Cody Berman So I think the aha moment actually came during my junior year of college my mom had given me the four hour work week by Tim Ferris to read and I was kind of going down the path of I really wanted to just make as much money as possible as going on the investment banking path and after reading that book I just realized what am I doing. Life is not about money. Time is my most valuable asset.
banking, college
569 - 616 Jonathan Mendonsa This is really interesting because you've kind of come to a similar conclusion as myself and as a highschooler you kind of get a list of. And honestly you'd probably just Google. What are the top paying jobs. I have a feeling most high schoolers at some point employ that Google search and you basically stack what you want to do just off of that simple list. But because I don't think you have these underpinning you'll understand like that again like we said your time is your most precious resource and you don't calculate that into the equation. Even though at face value maybe you're getting this great high paying gig with all this status that may or may not come with it. It isn't always as good of a deal as it looks at face value and I think you're coming to the same place that I'm coming to my 30s. But you're coming to it in your late teens early 20s. Was that kind of your epiphiny moment as well.
616 - 638 Cody Berman Yeah definitely I really had an epiphany and honestly like I had job offers on the table. They were like really high paying New York City internship offers and I turned them all down and worked for a firm that valued my time. Treated me like a human instead of a pawn. And that was just a complete turning point for me. I took a complete 180 after reading that four hour workweek.
638 - 668 Brad Barrett So Cody I'm curious you've turned down these ultra high prestige and high paying investment banking firms in New York City to go for more of a lifestyle play and while I commend you certainly I imagine that there was some discussion or backlash or whatever you want to call it amongst your your friends your professors even because that's not the traditional path. I'm curious what that conversation looks like and how you defend it. In essence your decision.
668 - 736 Cody Berman So I guess I wanna address the friends and professors part first there wasn't too much backlash from my friends because I kind of explained the situation and once you kind of get that rationale in their head like that time is really important. It's really hard to argue against that. And I received the most backlash from the firms themselves actually so I did network really hard in finance and in any business type roles you really have to network to get in with the prestigious firms. And they were not very happy when I turned down those offers after I'd been networking with them over the past several months. My rationale was so just thinking about it from how valuable is my time perspective so I'll give me some real numbers so some of these jobs in New York City are an internship. They'd pay quote unquote forty six dollars an hour. But you're working 80 to 100 hours a week. So just some quick math doing an 80 hour week you're making forty six dollars an hour working 80 hours a week on a typical work week is 40 hours. You can cut that in half. You're actually making 23 dollars an hour and you're working 80 hours a week. You're going to be completely miserable and you have no time for yourself. And despite the enormous amount of pay you get the end of the week it's just not worth your time.
736 - 759 Jonathan Mendonsa So just to clarify on that Cody so you're talking about a salary that when you do the math on it it's based on the 40 hour workweek and it would come down to roughly 46 dollars an hour. But the reality is these jobs end up being an 80 hour a week gig. And when you do the math on what it would actually be that tradeoff it's not nearly as good as it looks at face value is that what you're saying.
759 - 776 Cody Berman Exactly. So it's kind of advertised by a lot of the big banks that pay prorate based on a 40 hour workweek so they can say that they're paying forty six dollars an hour. But if you're working 80 hours a week. That turns out to be 23 dollars an hour. First of all and second of all you have a lot less free time and you're going to be a lot less happy.
776 - 803 Brad Barrett So Cody when you actually dive in and do the math as you're saying based on this hypothetical of the 46 dollars an hour and that actually gets down to 23 dollars per hour when you really do. Hey I'm working 80 hours per week. I'm curious if you did the math based on your ultimate decision to go with the lifestyle play where you didn't have to work as many hours. If it actually works out to be more compensation per hour then the prestigious investment bank.
803 - 819 Cody Berman Yeah so when you boil it down to dollars per hours worked to actually worked out to more money for hours worked in the job that I chose and the other awesome benefit was that they compensated for overtime which is pretty rare in the finance space. So I thought that was a no brainer to choose that internship.
819 - 878 Brad Barrett Yeah Cody this is a really important thing to highlight just for the audience is that and it goes back to the Vicki Robin book Your Money or Your Life. Which is it this is really about the essence of your life's time. Are you always hear people throw around. Hey I make x salary per year. But to me that's irrelevant. And it's always struck me and it's so nice to see you approach this at such a young age because it doesn't dive into how many hours you work. What are you giving up in your life in your relationships with your family and friends which you don't have with being able to do anything that actually excites you outside of work if you're working 80 hours a week. Right. So to me that dollars per hour that's a much more realistic and important figure certainly than a hey I mean a hundred thousand dollars per year. Well you know you need to figure out hey what is that person giving up for that salary.
families, relationships
878 - 912 Jonathan Mendonsa So Cody you've made this choice to pick a job based on value in your early 20s. It sounds like it's a good fit and I know there's so much more to your story that we're going to circle back and highlight even more to pull out all this amazing content. But I'm wondering if we were to take a step back and you're giving advice to either a younger sibling or or a friend and he or she is just saying hey you've clearly optimized this thing you've got it all figured out. What advice would you give to me. You know I want to follow in your footsteps and honestly I'm going to be selfish. I want to do it even better than you. What advice would you give to me specifically.
912 - 1026 Cody Berman So as an 18 year old looking for a university and looking for a major you really got to think about or what I think about is your time versus your money. So if you want to be a doctor are all of those years really worth it for you and is the money you're going to be making on the other end. Worth the time I'm going to be put in. Of course there's other outside factors like if you get true fulfillment from your job or from what you study in college then go for it. But if you are looking at this from a completely fi framework not taking any emotion into account you really have to optimize which major you choose and whether or not that major will give you the most value for the time that you're putting in. And even stepping back a few more years so maybe early high school freshman year of high school I really start to look at AP and Kleppe exams. Now at that age you're like oh why would I challenge myself and take a harder class. Maybe you have to put in an hour or more of homework per week and then at the end of the semester you have to take this big AP or clepp exam or a clepp exam you don't typically take a class, but the same general concept where you can get college credit. But if you understand how much money you can save by taking those exams and getting passing scores on them it is astronomical. So I really wish I took better advantage of them. I actually did not take any CLEP exams I found out about them after from friends who had come in with almost a year's worth of credits just from Kleppe exams. I was fortunate enough to take a few AP courses so when I first entered college I was already a second semester freshman but I could have easily easily take advantage of more of those exams and I've seen people who come into college with junior standing from their AP and Clepp Exam credits. And if you go to a private university that's costing you say 50000 dollars a year. That's a hundred thousand dollars in savings from putting a little more effort in in high school and although it's pretty tough to get the motivation in high school if you can get that framework instilled in your mind beforehand and you have the vision of FI. It's a lot easier to get that motivation and to save that money.
clep, college, savings
1026 - 1041 Brad Barrett So Cody they come in as juniors that by just by back of the envelope lets Math let's assume you take five courses per semester so they've taken 20 AP courses and CLEP tests in high school. How do you even go about doing that just actionable Tip 1.
1041 - 1071 Cody Berman So for example some of them will cover multiple subjects that might take in college. For example if you take a calculus BC. AP exam that will exempt you from level 1 calculus and level 2 calculus. So you might walk into a college with two classes for that or if you take an AP U.S. History exam that actually counts at a lot of universities for two classes. Right there are ready four classes from just two AP exams. It's kind of a compounding effect just taking them and you just keep knocking years off your college career and ultimately off your college debt. If you're forced to take out student loans.
college, college-loans, debt
1071 - 1096 Jonathan Mendonsa I love this idea. You know we spend so much time talking about how to cut off time off of your working career. You know your typical 9:00 to 5:00 so that you then have the option to either stop working or find work that you find more fulfilling. But like you can project this all the way back to college and you can kind of have you can have so much overlap between college and high school. If you know how to leverage these AP and Kleppe exams.
career, college
1096 - 1135 Cody Berman And in addition to the AP and clep exams scholarships are huge and there are so many scholarships out there. People think oh I'm never going to get the scholarships I shouldn't even bother applying. But if you just apply to say one scholarship a day which is not that hard if you just put a reminder in your phone. I know you guys like to use to do lists put it in your to do list just apply to one scholarship a day. Soon you apply to 50 scholarships. You're bound to get even five scholarships. There are a thousand or a few hundred dollars apiece. Those go really far and just knocking out that student debt you're knocking out loans that you don't have to pay down the road pay interest on. And so if you can get those scholarships early and just mass-apply you can put yourself in a really advantageous position.
clep, college-loans, debt, scholarship
1135 - 1164 Jonathan Mendonsa Well let's talk about scholarships a little more. This has always been a pain point for me just because I always felt like this. I don't know is probably a limiting belief but I didn't even know where to start. And I didn't feel I was one of these people that didn't feel like it was going to have any sort of impact. So you say OK I want to do a scholarship a day practically speaking actionable tip like where does that start. Does it start with Google. Hey find the top 10 scholarships. Does it start with going to your high school adviser like at a granular level what does it look like to do a scholarship a day. Yes.
1164 - 1224 Cody Berman So I guess I can break this down into the three main portals where I've found my scholarships. I think the first and easiest to get scholarships is through any local scholarships either offered through your state or through your community like maybe in your town or in your city. And those scholarships are a lot more likely to give you the scholarship money if you are a part of that commonwealth or that city or that town. another place to look is scholi (sp?) which is an app on your phone that is really good you enter in your criteria you enter in your GPA you enter in your major you enter into a lot of other information about yourself. And it basically just suggests scholarships that you should apply to based on the criteria you entered. And the third best place that I found scholarships is actually scholarships.com. It's that easy. That was just from a simple google search and that turned out to be a really good hit for me. So those are three places where I would start for people looking for scholarships. But you can definitely just go on google and type in scholarships forX. Whether it's here nationality, or your major, or a life circumstance that you've been through.
1225 - 1275 Jonathan Mendonsa So we're going to talk about the fact that you've started a site Helsel slash business at this point. But I think the reason I wanted to bring that in is because as I'm sure you're aware as a business owner one of the things you start to do is A/B test things so you test maybe different designs or different marketing strategies. But like taking those same principles that you use for your business and moving it all the way back to when you're applying for scholarships is there anything that you can draw from to talk about this. Pareto's principle this 80 20 like most of your results that you found you got came from when you really focused on this specific technique was it hey once I really developed the story that I tell myself about myself that really helped me get these scholarships or the GPA once I really nailed the GPA that really helped. Or the extracurriculars. Is there anything in particular there that someone that's starting from scratch could benefit from.
1275 - 1314 Cody Berman Yeah definitely. So basically what I did. I guess you could consider it a form of cheating quote unquote was made kind of templates for different scholarships so there'd be like a scholarship for what's your best accomplishment so far or what are your life goals and I'd have five templates and then just kind of tweak them depending on the foundation or whether I need to change a few things in it. And that actually worked really well for me and that was the same thing I did with my cover letters when I was applying to 30 plus firms for internships. And so using like a kind of a base template to start. I think that's one of the best places to start. And then you can just tailor it to whatever scholarship you're applying to or whatever job you're applying to in regards to cover letters.
1314 - 1361 Jonathan Mendonsa I'm so excited to ask that question that's exactly the sort of life hacks that you're looking for like when you're talking about starting the scholarship process you can't start from scratch every single time. You know we're talking about this efficiency of time. And if every single time you go to do this scholarship which is you're right it likely it's going to look very similar. Not every single one will look similar to each other but they do kind of tend to self-collect in these different groups if you can put a system in place to start churning these things out. Suddenly your rate of return just goes through the roof. And like you said you know maybe you're only landing one out of every five one out of every 10. But if it's more or less copy and paste with some small tweaks at the margins. Now you're looking at earning what would be an hourly rate you know way more than you could ever possibly hope to earn working a summer job.
1361 - 1386 Cody Berman Definitely. I think optimization is key. And so getting those templates and getting those foundations laid for any aspect of life really helps you in the long run. And you don't have to waste time on silly little things like rewriting an entire essay for that might be the same exact question that you were asked in the last scholarship you applied for or rewriting an entire cover letter for a firm that's almost identical to other firms that you're applying to.
1386 - 1411 Brad Barrett Cody I know based on a conversation I had with your mom made you finished at or near the top of your high school class so presumably you had some options when it came to colleges. I'm curious if you also took the same kind of fine mentality or scholarship mentality to your actual ultimate decision for college. How did scholarships and how did the overall cost of college come into your ultimate decision?
college, scholarship
1411 - 1457 Cody Berman Sure. So ultimately it came down between a private school and a state school and the private school did offer me a half tuition scholarship. So I was only paying about 50 percent of the sticker price and then I had a few independent scholarships from my hometown and some of those other ones I applied to through scholi and internships.com. But it was still looking like it was going to cost me about 20000 dollars a year which I would have to take debt out for that amount of money. But the state school on the other hand from all the scholarships I had obtained through my applications coupled with the small academic scholarship I got from the state school which was obviously less in dollar value than the private school. I ended up paying them less than five thousand dollars per year to go to that state school. So ultimately my frugality won and I chose the state school and ended up being one of the best decisions I ever made.
debt, frugality, scholarship
1457 - 1463 Brad Barrett Wow. So a total cost of college after all these scholarships of twenty thousand dollars or less.
college, scholarship
1463 - 1479 Cody Berman Yeah. And I was fortunate enough where my parents actually they said they'd figure it out. And they ended up paying that twenty thousand dollars that five thousand dollars per year so I am out of college now and I came out with a positive net worth which is pretty rare. And I know that I'm pretty fortunate to be in that position.
college, networth
1479 - 1532 Jonathan Mendonsa We have been highlighting over and over again like what is the estimated cost of college for your child when they when they're 18 years old you're going to be paying two hundred thousand dollars a year. And I remember even at one point I was kind of pushing you on this idea of how much would college actually cost and you're like I don't really think my kid can go to college for forty thousand dollars a year. But look Cody saying is basically by using the same principles that we're talking about on this show and this optimize the money he's able to get it down to five thousand dollars a year. And obviously like if your child can do the work to get the MSRP, the cost of college, down from twenty or forty thousand dollars a year down to five thousand dollars a year I would throw that five thousand dollars at a at a heartbeat. I mean it's almost like a litmus test for for how engaged are they in this process. You know regardless of the results if you just see the work being put in what an indicator of success after college.
1532 - 1553 Brad Barrett Yeah. Cody to kind of piggyback on Jonathan's point there. Did they tell you beforehand that they were going to pay the 5000 or was it really. Hey look I've got to cover the cost of college. Let me try to get all of these scholarships. Let me make the decision to go to the state school and then they saw your hard work and paid for it. Or was that kind of done ahead of time.
college, scholarship
1553 - 1573 Cody Berman So basically my dad would always say we'll figure it out. And I knew that he would do as much as he could but that 20000 dollar a year bill from that private school even though that is a drastically reduced price for private school. I knew that was unfeasible. I come from a middle class family making those types of payments every year was a lot less feasible than making a five thousand dollar payment every year.
1573 - 1620 Jonathan Mendonsa So Cody our thought has always been with this episode let's capture the little things that get glossed over. You know when you're in your 30s and 40s looking back isn't as helpful like your experiences 10 15 years ago when you were going to college may not be as relevant today. Things do change and so what's great about you talking about this is that this is current. This is fresh. This is actually how it works. I think that so many people that are only a year or two behind you can benefit directly from this input. Let's move out of the high school scholarship phase. Let's talk about college specifically you're in college now you're looking to optimize this either four year if you're starting from scratch or maybe this two or three year window that you have if you've implemented some of the AP and clep tactics that we talked about. What advice would you give to this individual.
clep, college, scholarship
1620 - 1700 Cody Berman Yeah I think that's a great point Jonathan. So to someone who's early in their college career or maybe just hopping into college the first thing I'd say to them is to get either a job that's earning you income while you're in college, you do have plenty of time. Some people think I have so much work I don't have the time for this job. Usually that's just people taking the easy way out and not working out their time effectively and not realizing how much time they actually have in the day. having this additional income stream while you're in college is one, pretty easy to do because college is not a full time job in the sense that you can study at any hour of the night and you have all day or all weekend to do whatever job you want. It could be a work study on campus they could be working in the dining halls. Could be an internship. It could be an apprenticeship depending on your major. And there's just so many different avenues in order to make up just a little bit of income while you're in college. And if you are fortunate enough in college and while in college you usually aren't shoveling too much money out the door. Either your college is paid for by your parents if you're lucky enough or it's covered by your student loans so that cash flow isn't immediate. So those earnings in college can go directly into say a Roth IRA or a traditional IRA depending on your viewpoint and what your plans are for the future and getting started early at 18 19. Like I said before just the power of compound interest with time is it so powerful.
college, college-loans, ira, roth, traditional
1700 - 1731 Brad Barrett Cody you strike me as someone who does a lot of research and tries to figure out the optimal way. I'm curious how much research you did on different work and side hustle options while you were in college. What did you ultimately decide on for your job and and did you go through kind of a cost benefit analysis of hey this is how much I'm going to make. Or maybe I can study while I'm working or just I'm kind of thinking outlandishly here. But was there any of that thought process that went into what job you actually selected.
college, hustle
1731 - 1813 Cody Berman Yes so I guess freshman year is where I wish I could go back and get a job during both of the semesters. But the extent of my work was going home on the weekends and working at my uncle's Disc Golf Shop. The one I had mentioned previously that I worked at from age 10 to 15. If I could go back I would definitely be looking harder freshman year for a job like that. But I was just getting into college like it was so cool. There was a bunch of parties and I was in college so I wasn't exactly looking for a job. But then sophomore year is when I started really doing a lot of research. And what I stumbled upon ultimately was a teacher's assistant position for an operation Information Management class. And so basically what I was doing was I was teaching Microsoft Office to other students and I started out my first semester sophomore year and it was kind of weird because a lot of the students in the class were older than I was. But I was fortunate enough that I did well in the class. And I got recognized by the teacher and through networking by befriending some of the previous teachers assistance I was able to secure the position and that job was one of the best decisions I made during my college career. Because one I was pulling in about four hundred dollars every other week from this job and I was probably doing five to 10 hours of work. And on top of that I was learning Microsoft Office like inside and out. So at this point I mean I consider myself excellent at excel.
1813 - 1883 Jonathan Mendonsa You're saying you can do more than the average function on an Excel sheet right. Yes. Let me ask you additional question about that just just dive into it if you're looking back in my mind. Yes. You can get any job in college but not every job is created equal like for instance what you just landed onto this teaching assistant position. This also allowed you to network at the same time. I would imagine that if someone is really treating college and they're really treating this job and college as yet another opportunity to optimize like working in the dining hall which you said was an option I could be wrong but probably isn't the choice from the optimizer perspective in my mind the perfect gig in college would either be one that has a high rate of return from a dollar perspective it has a very low amount of work required so you're able to study at the same time in which case that might be a reason that you would be willing to take less money. Maybe it provides free lodging like in the case of a an adviser or an R.A. or finally it provides you either free tuition or it provides you with the ability to find a network like as I'm saying that does. Do you generally agree with that or do you have anything to add onto that.
1883 - 1929 Cody Berman Yeah I agree with that Jonathan I think when you're looking for the perfect on campus job or maybe not on campus job a college job you want those three pillars you want good income, you want the ability to network, and you want the ability to either learn or do your homework. So a job like a dining hall job that's tough. It probably doesn't pay too well. You're probably not going to get too much networking done and you definitely aren't going to get homework done. So what I would say to someone trying to find a job in college is try to find a job where you can get your homework done because then you can kill two birds with one stone. You're making money your homework getting done and potentially you could set yourself up for awesome networking opportunities and get really close with the professor and maybe get to know more professors in that field and ultimately it can lead to an internship that can lead to a job. You never know.
1929 - 1972 Jonathan Mendonsa And in my mind I'm just going back to my own college I went to Virginia Tech and we have something called the Mass center there and so there's people that are. It's 24 hours a day. People are in there at 3a.m. in the morning studying or preparing for their plastics chemistry exam which is impossible to pass for any body. Then there's other individuals that are just basically at the computers letting people check in and out they're just studying as well but they're getting paid for it. I'm thinking to myself This is what winning looks like. If you're just going to be studying anyways you might as well might as well collect an hourly paycheck like this is what it looks like but it doesn't have to be that like I love that you landed on the teaching assistant position because there's so much networking build in as you're working like hand in hand with these professors.
1972 - 2010 Cody Berman Yes. One of the best parts of that job was that so. I taught a 1 hour lab every week and basically it was mostly on Microsoft Excel but we did some access and some PowerPoint. So that was 1 hour a week. I did about 4 hours a week of just corresponding with students because it was a class size of about 450 students but just my specific lecturer was 30 but I still had to address the forum where students ask questions so that it took four hours. So that's a collective 5 hours per week but I had 15 hours of what are called Lab hours where I would sit in the computer lab and monitor it quote unquote. So basically for 15 hours a week I was getting paid to do my homework.
2010 - 2026 Brad Barrett So you had a little bit of everything with this job you had the get paid to do your homework. You had been networking with professors and other teaching assistants and you were learning a really valuable skill at an advanced level with Excel and the entire office suite. That's not the trifecta right.
2027 - 2057 Cody Berman Definitely I think honestly out of those three I mean the income was very nice to have every other week and pretty much my only expenses was food sometimes and then alcohol for the weekends. So that money was really nice. But the learning excel for three years and not from just like a personal investment level but from a level where I had to teach other students I really really got a sound understanding of how it works and functional fluency and how to build the spreadsheet the correct way. And I think that was the most valuable skill I gained from those three years in that position.
2057 - 2088 Jonathan Mendonsa I'm curious you know as we kind of come back to this post college life now and you're in your job and you've kind of from a cashflow perspective you've got a good paying job and you have a high savings rate due to the frugality and the culture that you had growing up in your parents household. That path in and of itself would carry you to fi in a relatively short period of time. But I know that you didn't stop there. What inspired you to go ahead and pursue a side hustle or or start a business at the same time.
college, frugality, hustle, savings
2088 - 2242 Cody Berman So ultimately I think it was that introduction to the four hour work week cause Tim Ferriss really talks about just the power of a side hustle and passive income and semi passive income. And I thought that idea was just so cool. Building something that's just cash flows for you when you put in a minimal amount of effort all you have to do is lay the foundation and kind of just let it ride. So that's kind of why I started a side hustle. I had two failed side hustles before I tried to start a T-shirt company that failed just because of lack of motivation. Then I tried to kind of start a side tutoring business but I didn't do too much marketing a kind of lazy with it. And that also fell through. But ultimately after thinking about all the sizable possibilities I'm like OK what are my skills I'm good at finance and accounting. I'm really good at building spreadsheets and I kind of had a marketing background I've always had it like a creative side to me. Like I said in my story before I have a disc golf course right across the street from me. So I've loved that sport since probably I was 8 years old and I thought what better thing to do to earn money than something I love. So junior year in college I reached out to a mechanical engineer friend of mine James and together we started a company called Arsenal disks. So basically what we do is we manufacture premium golf discs. If you're not familiar with the sport of disc golf it's kind of like ball golf except you're throwing a plastic disk into what's called a pen which is kind of a metal fixture with chains and it's kind of like when you throw the putter it drops into the basket or the pen. That's the equivalent of getting the ball in the hole on golf. So just a quick run over for someone who maybe has never heard of disc golf before but there's courses popping up all over the place. So we kind of just pulled our talents together and I was like I can really run this business side like I was pretty confident that I had the skills to run a business. Pretty good computer background. good financial background. I knew how accounting works. I knew that we needed to hit x margins in order to be making money. Then on the other side of the equation I have a really talented mechanical engineer working with me who loves designing and who loves just creating things so he was the perfect candidate to team up with in order to actually create like the CAD files which is basically just an engineering software where you can design your own object so that's where he creates the disks and then we prototype them and ultimately after a few field tests we run more prototypes and ultimately we came out with five disks on the market. So those are the equivalent to five different golf clubs. We have three drivers a mid-range and a putter and this is all possible just from recognizing my talents recognizing someone else's talents realizing I could not do it by myself and team together and kind of just taking a leap of faith hoping it all works out and putting our nose to the grindstone.
college, hustle, passiveincome
2242 - 2297 Jonathan Mendonsa You know it's actually funny I actually got a disc golf pen for my birthday from my brother. It's one of these assembly ones that you can just pop up and take down when you want but in my mind disc golf is this incredibly frugal sport that like if you talk about hobbies and activities fitting into multiple buckets we just talked about this from the perspective of like optimizing your job you could do this with your hobbies too like a great hobby you would be one that doesn't cost a lot to get into that allows you to engage with other people so there's some community aspect as well. And would also hopefully allow you to get some form of exercise. You know these are these kind of three different reasons that people do hobbies community maybe frugality and from a health and wellness perspective and discover overlaps with a lot of those. And so I've been interested in it a while. Richmond actually has three of those courses so I would love to buy a set of your desk and use them with this new pen that I got from my brother.
frugality, health, hobbies
2297 - 2351 Cody Berman That sounds great. And if I'm ever down in the area I'd love to play around with you guys I can kind of show you the ropes and bring down a set of desks and yeah have a great time. Awesome. Like you said I think disc golf is really the perfect F.I. sport one a round can cost anywhere from zero dollars which is the fee for most US golf courses located in state parks. And the most expensive I've seen Fred this golf course is twenty five dollars around. So these fees are a lot lower than what you get a typical golf course. And you can get a set of three desks a driver a mid-range and a putter. If you're not going for the best quality you just want something that'll work. You can get all three of those for 15 dollars. So it's a very frugal sport and you can get exercise while you're doing it. And if anyone who likes a challenge yourself like most people are in the fi community it's fun to play with your friends. You can see who wins a round you can play doubles you can play by yourself and try to beat your personal score. Just a great sport all around.
2351 - 2367 Jonathan Mendonsa Cody you should totally run an opportunity cost calculation for being a member at a golf course and playing golf for 20 years versus playing disc golf for 20 years. And send that to me I'll share the numbers on a Friday roundup. Use Excel to create the report.
2367 - 2382 Cody Berman I could definitely whip something like that up and I think It'll be interested to see just average prices for like a membership fee at a golf course. I mean some people are paying. I know you guys joke about the golf membership but some some people are paying 50 grand a year just to be a member of a golf course.
2382 - 2386 Jonathan Mendonsa I haven't played since Brad started teasing me about it. Ha ha ha.
2386 - 2388 Brad Barrett You're welcome.
2388 - 2391 Jonathan Mendonsa My future self is thinking both of you.
2391 - 2421 Brad Barrett Hey Cody I'm I'm curious when you. Obviously you have a background with disc golf right. You grew up across the street. It's in the family essentially but you read the four hour work week. You had some sense of I guess as Tim Ferriss calls it a muse or a side hustle or passive income whatever we want to call it. What did you see about this particular industry that you thought hey there is a space here that I can take advantage of and make a successful business and make some money.
families, hustle, passiveincome
2421 - 2462 Cody Berman The main premise behind building the company definitely wasn't just to make a ton of money. I mean if that's how it works out then great but I think having a true passion for what you're doing is so much more powerful than a hunger for money. Because when you actually passionate about what you're building and about the sport it really shows through the brand and it shows through your customer service. And I think that's why we chose disc golf because I have such a deep connection with it. I love the sport. I like the people. There is a really strong community feeling and that's ultimately what steered me towards building this company it wasn't just just for profits. It wasn't just so I could achieve F.I. as soon as possible. Of course that's a nice side benefit of it. But that's now the ultimate reason we started the company.
2462 - 2495 Brad Barrett Alright Cody. So you have this side hustle and you've created a product you actually ship these things out presumably I'm not sure if you have a drop shipper or if you are actually packaging up yourselves you obviously have a nice looking website here at Arsenal disc's dotcom so it's plural Arsenal disc's dotcom really nice site but I mean I know there's a lot that goes into being a business owner. Talk to us about the time commitment for this. How much it involves what it entails and is it more or less than you anticipated when you set out to this.
2495 - 2600 Cody Berman So I guess it's kind of it ebbs and flows. So when we first started the business that first month I mean I had so much passion and just so much energy because when you're building something up from scratch is just the most motivating things. I was probably working 40 to 60 hours a week on just a company building it out. We were developing a Web site with the help of a marketing agency just giving the name for the disks doing a lot of research reaching out to a ton of people to figure out who are we going to mold with because we use injection molding technology to make these disks. Who are we going to do sampling with. What retailers are we going reach out with setting up the social media accounts. And a lot of other administrative stuff like that. So ultimately you could see how this could get to a four hour workweek in the long term. Yes we do have busy weeks especially when we're sampling new materials and we need to do a lot of correspondence with our Molder. That's probably the most hectic weeks we have right now but most weeks is just fulfilling customer orders that come through our website and then interacting with social media. We make sure we answer everyone on social media and on our Web site and fulfilling customer orders and to address your question. Brad yes we do our own fulfillment. As of right now once we scale up we're going to look towards a fulfillment center but at this point in time it just makes more sense for us since we have the time to do the shipping ourselves. Many people may have contention with the way that I'm approaching fi but I think one of my biggest beefs with the financial independence community is hitting this number and an article I recently read by Mr. Money Mustache actually called Money and confidence are interchangeable kind of really solidified this idea in my head because what I like to think about is the what I call the reverse 4 percent rule. So say making five thousand dollars a year if that's in your nest egg and you're taking up 4 percent you multiply by 25 to reverse that 4 percent rule.
2600 - 2647 Cody Berman And so that's one hundred twenty five thousand dollars you've got to accumulate in your nest egg to equate to that five thousand dollars you're earning per year. So my idea is that just once you cut your expenses to the Barebone minimum and especially at my age I'm very flexible. I could always move back in with my mom or I could always eat ramen noodles. These are very extreme scenarios where if everything went wrong I could definitely be very flexible and live on something like 10 grand a year because I don't have kids I don't have a house. I wouldn't have to be paying rent in that scenario. And so I think just taking risks and not waiting until you hit some number to pursue your passion is kind of the FI lifestyle that I really want to take. So I don't want to give you an exact date on when I'm going to quit my 9 to 5 per say. Could be in a year. Could be in two years three years.
2647 - 2651 Jonathan Mendonsa I notice you didin't say. you didn't say 15 years or 20 years spread.
2651 - 2653 Cody Berman No.
2653 - 2654 Brad Barrett It's amazing.
2654 - 2777 Cody Berman So yeah I mean especially being exposed to people who have done it at this age your just like how can I possibly want to work a 9-5 after consuming all these blogs all these podcasts about people who have done it. Like what. What is the reason I would want to work a 9 5 job. And so I really can't see myself staying in one for more than three years. And I think going back to the article I read that money and confidence are interchangeable. If I have a side gig like Arsenal discs and even if it's pulling in say twenty thousand dollars a year I can definitely be flexible enough where that will cover all of my expenses. And so why not live the life you love now take that leap of faith early on and not wait till you accumulate this the sacred cow the nest egg and you can't retire until you hit that certain number. I really really like the idea of cash flow now and that reverse 4 percent rule is like how much money in my nest egg would I need in order to get X amount of income this year. So in my example five thousand dollars this year is one hundred twenty five thousand dollars in nest egg and that might take a long time to accumulate but it's not that hard to make five thousand dollars in a year. You could board a Starbucks you could borrow. You could do landscaping. There's so many options to make that additional income. And something I liked actually that Joel from Taiwan he says and he talks about the value of the dollar. Once you're close to Fi how incrementally more powerful those dollars are because in those scenarios it's like the reverse 4 percent was talking about like a thousand dollars a year. Based on the 4 percent rule that's twenty five thousand dollars and you're in your nest egg and that's a really powerful mindset to think about and I think that's a reason why a lot of people who really go on this accelerated path to FI focus on real estate because you can get that passive income you can get that cash flow every month. And that's ultimately definitely going to be one of my future endeavors one of my side hustles maybe in the next year or less maybe next two years something like that. Definitely going to try to get into the real estate space specifically AirBNB but doing a lot of research into that and just the cash flow that you can make can completely replace that income that you're drawing down on from a nest egg.
hustle, mindset, passiveincome
2777 - 2828 Jonathan Mendonsa You know Brad I've been sitting on this idea for a while that you spent a lot of time saying you know is it the 4 percent rule or the 4 percent rule of thumb. I am willing to say like for the record for the second generation five percent or for the individual that has figured this thing out and is pursuing FI at the age of 20 or 25 years old. My thing is does it even matter. Like does the 4 percent rule matter at all because the same individual that has optimized all their life choices by this point 25 30 35 they're not just done they're not sitting on the couch they're optimizing and tweaking and figuring out cashflow situations. This is no longer. This doesn't resemble anything that we have been talking about in the traditional context of retirement or in the traditional context of the 4 percent rule. This is creating a lifestyle that excites you all along the way.
2828 - 2860 Brad Barrett And someone with that flexibility and creativity to do this at 25 to 27 years old. You have to imagine in the subsequent 70 years that they're going to do some incredible thing. So yeah I hear you it's it's kind of cute to talk about this as a 4 percent rule or rule of thumb but it's a guideline. And clearly Cody is talking about building streams of incomes building side hustles in businesses. I mean this is what a creative and flexible life looks like. So Cody I absolutely love them.
2860 - 2888 Jonathan Mendonsa Cody we are going to hop into the hot seat before we do that let's give people a chance to find out how to connect with you if they want to find out more about your story we're going to put a link to the shownotes to an article that you wrote Over at Get Rich Slowly. It was featured about a month or two back. JD was so excited by your story he actually featured it as a case study. But if someone that's listening to this maybe a high school or someone in college or parent looking to give some advice to their kids want to reach out to you. What's the best way for them to contact you.
2888 - 2895 Cody Berman Yeah the best way to connect to me is probably through my Web site at fly to fly dot com while working 9:00 to 5:00 when you can fly fi.
2895 - 2897 Jonathan Mendonsa Alright buddy. Well let's go ahead to the hotseat Are you ready for this.
2897 - 2900 Cody Berman Oh yeah I'm excited.
2900 - 2928 Speaker In a world drowning in debt and rampant consumption trapped by the chains of lifestyle inflation. These questions highlight the secrets of those who are broken free welcome to the choose F.I. hotseat.
2928 - 2932 Brad Barrett Cody question number 1 your favorite blog. That's not your own.
2932 - 2950 Cody Berman I think gwe're going to have to go with the mad fientist on this one because I'm really about optimization in terms of numbers and just early on looking on a lot of his spreadsheets and a lot of his retirement calculators like whether I should contribute to a Roth or Traditional IRA. I really like the tools he's built over there and I think he does a lot of great work for the quantitative side of FI.
ira, roth
2950 - 2956 Jonathan Mendonsa All right. Question number two your favorite article of all time. Now this can be one that you wrote or it can be somebody else's.
2956 - 2974 Cody Berman So I think I'm going to actually go with the recent Mr. Money Mustache article money and confidence are interchangeable because that really spoke to me about how you should take the time now to pursue what you love instead of waiting until you have X number of dollars just dive and do it you love it at some point. You can probably monetize that passion.
2974 - 2976 Brad Barrett Alright Cody question number 3 your favorite life hack.
2976 - 3062 Cody Berman So I think I'd have to say Air BnB is my favorite life hack. And the reason for that is a lot of people who are maybe in their 40s 50s 60s are kind of scared to use Air BnBs. I don't know scared is the right word. The power of using air BMB while you're traveling is incredible. And I know a lot of people like my aunts and uncles and just people in that generation are kind of hesitant to use airBnb or any kind of like ride sharing app like Uber or house sharing like air BMB or carsharing like Tourro. A lot of those apps that have recently been developing and like the economy sharing sector are really powerful tools in order to save a lot of money or potentially earn a lot of money. So if you buy an investment property you can earn sometimes two to three times a month monthly mortgage with an air BMB or if you don't use your car that much if you're biking to work you can rent your car out and Tourro and make maybe a thousand dollars a month. So a lot of these economies sharing tools are really powerful and I don't think people take advantage of them because they don't fully understand them and they don't understand how they're monitored and how people are rated and you're not just staying in some creepy guy's house like those reviews and just for example a hotel somewhere could cost a hundred dollars. That's a pretty cheap hotel air B and B you can get a decent air B and B for twenty five dollars a night. That's not a far fetched number. So just the power of saving that I've been able to do personally through traveling and staying in air Bnb I've probably saved in the hundreds maybe thousands of dollars.
hotseat-lifehack, savings, travel
3062 - 3077 Jonathan Mendonsa All right. Question number four you're only 22 years old. So I would imagine for someone that has as many optimizations under their belt as you've listed on the show that you shouldn't have a lot of options to choose from. But your biggest financial mistake.
3077 - 3134 Cody Berman OK so this is definitely going to be my car purchase that I made when I was 16 years old. So I didn't want to spend much money on a car but my dad convinced me that I should get the best car that I can possibly afford. And so at 16 from all my previous birthdays and from working from 10 to 15 the golf shop and other various jobs I had about 12000 dollars in the bank. And so I spent every penny on a 2009 Volvo S14 T5 with a sports package. And my dad convinced me that was a good investment because it was a safe car it was cool car I looked really cool at school and if I could go back and just buy the two thousand dollar beater and put that ten grand into an IRA I mean that was at 16 so it probably would be something like 15 maybe 16 grand by now and for forfeiting those gains with the mindset that I have of always wanting the optimal situation to happen. It's just I cringe when I think about all that money that I lost.
3134 - 3157 Jonathan Mendonsa What an incredible picture to pay you know to be fair to dad. He did instill this culture of saving so it's absolutely net positive. But what a reverse of the normal situation. So yeah I definitely get that it's actually incredible how many of us the financial mistake involves the car like we have been sold a bill of goods and I don't think very many people understand the true cost of car ownership.
3157 - 3163 Brad Barrett Alright Cody. Question number five the advice you would give your younger self your even younger self.
3163 - 3196 Cody Berman So I think talking back to just getting ready for college I would take every AP and Clep exam possible. I really think that if you apply yourself you have so much potential to wipe out those general education classes in classes that you're just paying for to take even though you may not want to learn them and so going into college all of those are done and you can just focus on that thing that you really love. Whether it's computer science or business or art or whatever it might be you can just devote two years in that scenario where you're not years out you can devote your full two years to your passion and what you want to actually study.
clep, college
3196 - 3205 Brad Barrett Cody with what courses you did take with AP and club. Were you able to cut off any time from your actual what would be a standard four year college career.
career, college
3205 - 3232 Cody Berman Yes so I actually had enough credits to graduate a full year early although I wanted to stay a little extra bit just because I wanted to do with friends and I was having a great time in the last semester I kinda took it easy. I only took classes I really wanted to take. So I ended up graduating in three and a half years so I still graduate a semester early. And for this last gap. So we're recording this in March and from January until June I'm actually traveling in Australia before I go to my full time job in July.
3232 - 3235 Brad Barrett That's nice. So it's a gap half year essentially and that's awesome.
3235 - 3243 Cody Berman Yeah basically it's a gap half year six months of traveling. No worries. Just before I start my full time career while I have the time and flexibility.
career, travel
3243 - 3261 Brad Barrett Alright Cody we have a bonus question. And basically in the FI community we often talk about cutting down on expenses and saving money. But that said purchases can enrich our lives in an instance and so I'm curious do you have a favorite purchase that you've made in the last 12 months or so.
hotseat-purchase, savings
3261 - 3285 Cody Berman Yeah I'm actually gonna go to the purchase that I made here in Australia which was a bike that I got off and Gumtree which is basically the equivalent to craigslist for in Australia. I've got the bike for forty dollars. It's a pretty nice bike but the best part of it is I use this bike to deliver Uber eats for side income while I'm travelling in Australia make my own schedule it's flexible. It's decent money and yes so the investment it actually made itself back which is great.
3285 - 3296 Jonathan Mendonsa So to clarify you're slow travelling in Australia and while you're doing that you're taking advantage of the new economy to actually earn side money or a side hustle while you're on the slow travel vacation.
hustle, travel
3296 - 3313 Cody Berman Yeah it's nice having a few extra hundred dollars per month and the uber eats was actually perfect because I have so much flexibility that if I had a shift position where I had to get a shift covered because I was travelling in New Zealand or travelling to Sydney or wherever I wouldn't get it covered because with Uber you can just do it whenever you want.
3313 - 3321 Jonathan Mendonsa Dude you're just crushing this thing all the way around and this has been so much fun having you on the show and diving into your story. Thanks for coming on today.
3321 - 3323 Cody Berman Thank you guys so much this has been great.
3323 - 3411 Jonathan Mendonsa So Brad obviously it comes to this episode. What an impressive guy Cody is and how much he's accomplished. His mom Ruth who we talking about earlier actually messaged me going into this and just said I'm just so proud of everything that my son has done and just how he has really brought this whole framework together and she gave me some additional details which if people are listening to this trying to get a sense of practically what has Cody accomplished from an academic perspective here's a few things graduated top 1 percent of his college class. His interest include weightlifting disc golf snowboarding ping pongM.A and wakeboarding. He graduated the top 10 in his high school class with a GPA of ninety nine point seventy five awarded for the most outstanding high school mass student with a college GPA of three point nine 1 and his major was a 4.0 teaching assistant which we all we obviously covered and was in the UMass investment club won first place in the annual 2015 investment club stock pitch competition. Out of twenty five competitors Brad this is one of those episodes you have to find the right person to get it. I mean frankly I can't talk about optimizing college anymore I can't talk about optimizing high school. I'm looking at it as an outsider. It's not information that serves me right now so like in order for this to be applicable in order for this to be relevant you have to find someone that is incredibly close to it and can talk about what they did in the short term and what they are doing and Cody is the first person that in my mind has been able to bring this to the conversation and show us what what we don't know that we don't know.
3411 - 3469 Brad Barrett Yeah Cody is a very impressive person. There's no doubt about it and I mean to be this far along. At 22 both in a monetary perspective and also to have this side hustle that he's created and really to have the mindset of fi right. I mean he has had that for years now going back to turning down that really high paying and prestigious investment banking job that almost invariably would have led to a very lucrative job after college. But he made the decision really from a fi and lifestyle perspective that that wasn't his path. So yeah I mean Cody certainly can speak to that second generation fire community that we're constantly talking about here. And yeah I think this is the first of many times we'll have Cody involved in the choose fi community. On the podcast I know he's thinking about blogging for us now. He has a lot to offer this community and yeah just absolutely thrilled that he got to share his story here.
2ndgenfi, banking, college, hustle, mindset
3469 - 3544 Jonathan Mendonsa So guys Brad and I are always looking for a way to support this community and also in this case support Cody as well. And so what we'd love to do for the next seven days. This got aired on Monday through this upcoming Sunday. If you take the time to leave us a written review for the podcast just go to choose FI dot com slash iTunes follow the instructions there leave us a short written review and then send us an email to feedback. ChooseF.I. dot com letting us know that you left to review and what screen name you left it under. We're going to purchase one set of disc golf for every five written reviews that we get and then we will announce the winner on an upcoming Friday roundup. Alright my friends. If you got value from the episode if you've been getting value from the episodes up to this point if this is information that you can use now or your child can use now. This is what we're here for. Take one second. Press the subscribe button on the platform that you're listening to this. It just lets the providers know that you're getting value from this content and you want to be here. When we produce additional episodes the fire is spreading my friends. We'll see you next time as we continue to go down the road bus drop you've been listening to choose a radio broadcast where we help middle class America build well one life hack at a time.

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