004 - Get Off The Hamster Wheel | Jonathan Backstory

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Time Speaker Text Tags
1 - 11 Brad Barrett Hey Everyone welcome back to the studio this is Brad Barrett From choose FI dot com. And in this show we're going to actually interview Jonathan my co-founder of choose FI.
11 - 11 Jonathan Mendonsa Hey Brad.
11 - 43 Brad Barrett Hey. So yeah we're going to turn the tables on you in a prior episode we interviewed me. But I think your story is much more common and much more interesting to people out there. I think this will be a very valuable episode. So you know I just want to paint the picture of where you were when you graduated pharmacy school. As I understand it it was August 2013 you had just graduated from VCU pharmacy school. You have this great career path ahead of you. according to the rules of society right. The American Dream the hamster wheel as you call it.
career
43 - 45 Jonathan Mendonsa Love calling it the hamster wheel.
45 - 49 Brad Barrett But you had a hundred and sixty eight thousand dollars in student loan debt.
college-loans
49 - 86 Jonathan Mendonsa In student Yeah. And you know what's crazy about that. That is essentially for some people a mortgage that is three or four car payments that is just this massive almost incomprehensible amount of debt to have. And I say that knowing that there are other people that have two hundred thousand three hundred thousand four hundred thousand dollars in debt. You know this was my number but it is just a crazy and I can't wait to dive down into some of the details but that is a crazy amount of debt to have without any sort of asset to tie to it other than your you know your license we're not talking about having a mortgage or a home or something that you could sell to pay off. It is on you.
debt
86 - 131 Brad Barrett Yeah I mean it's incredible. That's a huge number. So at that point you were at minimum 160000 in debt. You know I think based on some schedules I've seen your net worth was was even more negative than that but you can talk about it. So what I'm curious about is how you got there. So not only physically where did you get the debt from. Is it just from graduate school was it from undergrad. But but really the psychology of where did you go from when you were. I don't know let's say 18 right here you make a decision for college. You make the decision to go to pharmacy school to take on all this debt talk me through how you got to that point when you were 168 K in debt on August 2013 and what your hopes were for the future. At that point and just tell the audience how you got there.
college, college-loans, debt, networth
131 - 227 Jonathan Mendonsa Yeah thanks for setting me up for that. So this is going to be a lot of fun to answer because this is my life. So I want to be successful. And it was a known fact that in order to be successful you needed to go into the medical career. Now that just was a vibrant industry. There's a lot of need for it. And so that is really what I put all my hopes and my dreams and into into being that person. And along the way I realized the magnitude of the debt that I was incurring but that was always presented to me as the best option that is the best option that America has for you if you take out all this debt and you go and you get this degree you will be successful you will be in that top 1 percent or 18 or whatever whatever number you want to throw out there. But that was the plan so I did not follow the rules. I took out the student loan debt. I got the grades and I got out and got my degree and got my job. But along with that with that degree and that job was this this debt that had now been snowballing on me and was 160000. And if I can give you a number to put that in perspective for the people that are listening today. That is a thousand dollars of interest a month. A thousand dollars of interest a month for the rest of eternity. If you don't pay it down you will always have to spend an extra thousand dollars a month on interest. And so in order to pay that thousand dollars in interest you're going to have to earn 35 percent more because it's post tax dollars. And because you're in a high tax bracket there are no deductions for you. You are phased out of deductions in order to pay that student loan that thousand dollars and what you're going to need to earn $1300. 300 of it's going to go back to the government and taxes and then what you have left you need to pay them.
career, college-loans, debt, medical, tax
227 - 228 Brad Barrett And they have to pay off principal.
228 - 282 Jonathan Mendonsa And you end up on top of that your paper that's for eternity. So if you want to then get rid of that and have your life be less expensive. You need to start up with the principal and you have $160000 in principal. So it's intense. It's intense and so I think one of the things you realize after you graduate and you stop and you start working is what post tax dollars in a high marginal tax bracket look like really and you have this salary that you're told that you're getting but then you actually only end up with this. And then because you have a car payment and you have a mortgage and you have a food bill and maybe some people have kids and they got other expenses and they have delayed gratification on on a lot of these big purchases for so long because they had to do an extra four years of school. So now you know maybe they're 28. They've been trying to hold off on starting a family maybe they held off on getting the car and they've been driving their beaters around. It's very difficult to resist the temptation of going far the other way but you know you really just don't have as much as you think you have.
families, tax
282 - 290 Brad Barrett You know there's no doubt about it. And just going back for a second to the 168K was all from pharmacy school and was that from undergrad as well.
290 - 318 Jonathan Mendonsa I actually was pretty. Try to be pretty smart about a lot of stuff I did the community college for two years which kept my bills pretty low. My parents helped me with one year of undergraduate I only needed the second year so I really only came up with about maybe eight to ten grand of undergrad and a lot of people have a lot more than that but that was my particular situation. So most of it was pharmacy school were going to be in probably 130 140 because some of that is interest that accrues while you're actually in school and then you know get piled on the principal.
college
318 - 334 Brad Barrett That makes sense. So OK so you graduated from undergrad. Did you go immediately to pharmacy school or did you take some time and you know talk us through the decision to go to pharmacy school and were there different options that would have been cheaper potentially Were there things that you could have done differently.
334 - 418 Jonathan Mendonsa Yeah. What could I have done differently. You know for me in general I think it was a pretty good decision you know my plan actually worked I have a six figure income. I had a lot of student loan debt but it's possible for me to pay that up in fact I have. We can talk about that a little bit but I've basically wiped it out in about three and a half to four years and I just put everything I had at it I used some techniques to reduce my living expenses. So I mean you could say that my plan was a success and that it was worth it because I have this income potentially for the rest of my working career and it's a really good income but I think what I learned from it was really to analyze your motives for doing something and analyze. Was this the best way of doing it was this really necessary because I'm 32 years old and I'm essentially Now back to even you know so I delayed working so I could get the degree. Now I've got the degree and it took me four years now to pay down all the student loans. Now I'm 32 really before I had my first real job essentially and I'm really kind of just starting from scratch building something and I have choices now I can just continue with this career or I could try to start something new. But the question is you know was this the best choice. Do I enjoy doing this. Is this what I want to do or would I like to go off in a different direction and I think probably that question is still being answered. But for those of you that haven't made that choice yet I think it's a really interesting conversation to have to think about why it is you're doing something and are you doing it because America and our culture tells you you have to. Are you doing it because that's your passion and that's what you love and it's just a good conversation to have
career, college-loans, debt, highincome
418 - 434 Brad Barrett Yeah without a doubt and I think a crucial point Jonathan just mentioned is the economic concept of opportunity cost. Right. So it's what you're foregoing by making a decision. So Jonathan went to four years of pharmacist school. Was that correct.
434 - 434 Jonathan Mendonsa Four years of pharmacy school.
434 - 468 Brad Barrett Four years of pharmacy school. And then three plus years to pay down the debt which is frankly a miracle that he did that. And we'll talk about that certainly and in this interview but let's just say that's seven years just to get back to zero. And obviously he has this degree that now enables him to get a six figure plus salary. But seven years that if he didn't make that decision he could have been earning money all the while or learning other skills like creating a podcast or creating a site. As you've as you've done over the last X number of months that costs essentially nothing right. I mean you.
debt
468 - 512 Jonathan Mendonsa Oh my Goodness and think about that. I mean just think about it. So essentially I have purchased and studied my way into getting this income that makes me six that will make me six figures. But the purchasing cost side from the educational component the time component the purchasing cost for that was one hundred sixty eight thousand dollars so that's a $160000 investment in order to earn a six figure income. Is that the only way to do that so let's say that your motivation for going into you know a medical profession was really just that you wanted to earn a six figure income. You didn't particularly want to go to med school or pharmacy school you really just wanted to earn a six figure income is paying $160000 and giving up eight years of your life. Is that the best way to get a six figure income. Is there a more efficient way of doing it.
medical
512 - 548 Brad Barrett I have to imagine there's a better way. I mean there's certainly a better way outside of the industry right. I think that's what you're alluding to and tons of different fields and knowledge that you can pick up that don't cost us money. I was an accountant and I just went to undergrad. I didn't need to do any type of post-graduate work to get my CPA license and I came out of college making I forget about $45000 which was not a ton of money but for having essentially no debt undergrad and I lived at home or two years. So I made forty five grand. The only thing that I was giving up was taxes at that point which is fairly small on that kind of income. I was able to see 90 percent of my of my income.
accountant, college, debt, tax
548 - 584 Jonathan Mendonsa That's just awesome. when you when you start to think about things differently you start thinking about savings. That's one of my favorite things to discuss is your savings rate and whether or not it's post-tax or pretax all that stuff but savings rate can be everything and it is a podcast all by itself it's one that we're going to discuss at some point but just think about that at a 90 percent savings rate and just run a couple of math equations with that down the line and see what that looks like. It's unbelievable. It means essentially just just just to go right to the ending and spoil the end of the story for you. It means that you could retire what you need to work one year just to stay retired for 10 years is that what it means essentially.
savings, tax
584 - 598 Brad Barrett And obviously I wound up eventually not saving 90 percent of my time. But those two plus years that I lived at home really transformed my entire financial life because I was able to save whatever it was 30 grand a year. I mean that's a huge amount of money for a 22 year old kid.
savings
598 - 617 Jonathan Mendonsa Can you imagine me in 22 years that because of a couple of decisions you made from the age of 12 to 20 you are starting out life with a hundred grand in the bank. I mean that is an entirely doable proposition if you're given that till the skills and you have somebody model it for you so you can kind of see what it might look like. I just I think it's unbelievable.
617 - 631 Brad Barrett Yeah and that's that's the concept of opportunity cost so Johnathan is starting at 32 now essentially where I was at 22. Now albeit my income was dramatically less than his is now. But that's an interesting conversation to have on the path to financial independence.
631 - 640 Jonathan Mendonsa Absolutely. And you know what the cool thing is you all may not know it but there's so many people out there that have done exactly that and we're going to find them and we're going to talk to them.
640 - 680 Brad Barrett Yeah for sure. And one thing that I'm sure you've picked up in the last X number of minutes here on this interview is Jonathan we said came out with 168 K of student loan debt in August of 2013. We're recording this in December of 2016 now. Right. So three and a third year later and he has essentially paid it down to almost zero. Yeah I think you know he somewhere in the vicinity of $20000 left which will be paid off in short order. Yeah. Now my question to you Jonathan I'm sure everyone in the audience is wondering this is how the heck did you do that. What is what is the mechanism to pay back 140 plus thousand dollars in three and a third years.
college-loans, debt
680 - 684 Jonathan Mendonsa One. Marry somebody that's more frugal than you. That's a great tip.
684 - 688 Brad Barrett Yeah I have that as well. My wife is makes me look like a big spender.
688 - 1177 Jonathan Mendonsa My wife's amazing she's way more frugal than I am and it's awesome. But aside from that and moving forward some of the other stuff it takes. Gosh I'm going to say three bullet points but there might be a fourth one after I get to the third one. I'll be honest this is going to be a confession. I'm really not the most frugal person. I'm a reluctant frugalist I have an article that you can read on ChooseFI dot com about that. But I am very disciplined and I hate recurring expenses I don't mind spending money one time on something but I hate bleeding money out month to month. So first find out what your life cost. I started by simply just tracking our expenses for you know my family using mint and we categorized every transaction for three months just to kind of find out you know what her actual cost were and so just to share some of those with you also all kind of can compare and contrast. We were at you know thirteen hundred dollars a month in rent $150 a month for a cell phone bill $120 a month for the cable bill $350 car payment $60 gym membership $35 a month for water car insurance. Hundred and some odd dollars a month electric bill $200 a month food bill was approaching $800 a month and the student loan bill which was that massive one was all the way up a $2000 a month. So that's where it was that's where you started that. And frankly that that approaches almost $60000 a year in just recurring monthly expenses. And so once you have figured out what your actual life is costing you then the next step is you need to focus on how can I decrease that because you have two approaches if you want to try and get more to your student loans one you can increase your income. But that is inefficient because you're already in a high tax bracket so if you're already spending a certain amount of money if you want to send extra to student loans in order for you to send maybe a $100 extra to student loans to earn on an almost $140 in order to do that. So it gets increasingly expensive. And so you should always look at first and how can you minimize those expenses and see if you can decrease what your life is actually costing on a month to month basis. And if you can do that successfully you'll be paying off your loan with cheaper dollars. So that's what we focused on. And we were able to get rid of it by looking at that. We were able to get rid of a bunch of that stuff some of that maybe standing out to you the audience as wasteful already. So for me when I look at that now I see that cell phone and the cable is ridiculous. So you know just cut the cable Who needs cable this is 20:16 there's a million different ways that you can watch anything you want on the Internet including at bare minimum Hulu Netflix Amazon Prime. You just you just don't need cable anymore. Just a way to feed you commercials for eight hours a day. So we got rid of that. The cell phone bill that's also ridiculous. I mean that is absolutely ridiculous. And there's a lot of options to reduce your cell phone bill so if you're paying $150 a month for yourself window for you and your spouse. Come on. Figure out a way to do better. And if you're saying your stuff will have to have my phone. Come on. We're talking about your life freedom here do you really need to get to spend $150 a month on a cell phone bill. So we moved them down to a republic wireless project FI type programs and you know we spend about $20 a month for phone maybe 50 to 60 dollars a month total. We also took a look at some of the other things we decided that the gym membership we really weren't getting a lot of use out of. So first we end up moving it to a like a smaller gym that was only $10 a month. We decided we didn't need all the features that were being offered by that $60 month megaplex. And at this point we've just cut it completely and we're focusing on a more functional fitness and things that we can do at home. We also crushed our food bill. We figured out how to get that down dramatically. We decreased how many times were going to the restaurants and we focused on paying off the car and we focused on our electric bill and tried to find out why that was so high. Was there a way to decrease that so the other thing you gotta do is you've got to figure out how to make that simple and how to control your money to dictate where your money goes. And so honestly when you're in this position and you're trying to pay down a dramatic amount of debt you really do need to avoid credit cards credit cards. There's a statistic that says that people spend on average an extra 12 percent when they use credit cards. And I can definitely see how that would be true. But even if you're not doing that. The problem with credit cards is that they give you too much flexibility on the front side and you need to be very disciplined and focused. You need to have a set amount of money and use that specific amount of money. And so debit cards really are better. And the specific system I used was to not just have one bank account with one debit card but to actually open up about five or six different bank accounts my bank lets me open them for free. And I would give each one of those a name. So you have a food account you had a gas account you had personal spending account and each one of those got a set amount of money and that's what you had to live on for those 15 days. And we did it. You know I get paid biweekly but biweekly doesn't really play nice with other stuff so we did on the first and the 15th. You would get an auto transfer of a specific amount of money that we had pre pre-decided and that's what she had to live off of. And we did that successfully for about two and a half to three years. And what we would do as soon as I would get paid I would auto transfer the specific amount to the bank accounts and then everything else passed that I would go ahead just send off to student loans. I mean it was gone. And just like that. And then I would mark it down that I had paid that and that was my little win. So that was bullet point one into two bullet point three is focus and intensity because you can do something really well for one month or for two months maybe even three months. But to do something really well and have that intense focus which is what it requires for three years. It is boring. It is not fun. You know there's nothing glamorous about paying down debt. There's something kind of glamorous about investing even if it's an index funds which are as boring as you can get. It's kind of glamorous in that you can visualize your money earning money for you. But if you're paying down debt you have to look for other metrics in order to keep yourself engaged in this process. And so I had to come up with whole new systems to look at to say hey I'm really making progress because you just send the money off and it just disappears. And then maybe it goes down a little bit. But it's hard to track what it's really doing and every single time you choose to send them that money for that student loan payment. That's money that you don't have for vacation. You don't have to go eat out or or do other stuff that is more fun and enjoyable you know. So I came up with a few different metrics that I use and I have an excel sheet that we've actually posted on Choose FI dot com that you can download for free if you if you have a lot of debt you want to pay down and you want a tool to help you stay focused and on track. It's available there for free download. But basically I looked at one I looked at my total balance obviously. And then I created an Excel sheet to help me track what my daily interest accrual rate was. And then I put that into perspective. So you know when it started it was almost a thousand dollars a month in interest that I was paying regardless of my balance. But then as I got it down maybe if you look at a monthly interest rate of a thousand dollars a month that is almost $130 a day in interest relatively. So after I would make an extra thousand or $2000 payment maybe it would go down to like $29 a day or $27 so just track every single little win and say you know what. Now my monthly interest accrual has gone down from a thousand dollars a month down to $300 a month so now I've moved from having a home mortgage down to a car payment. You just got to visualize you've got to track it you've got to look for wins you got to keep yourself motivated if you can project out every payment you're going to make for the next eight or nine payments and you're not just doing your auto payments which give you a discount but you're also doing extra payments based around your biweekly pay schedule if that's how you get paid. You've got to look at how those impacted by paying it early as soon as you get paid. The first thing you do is you go and you send that student loan payment in because there is a daily cost a daily cost of not sending in those payments so it takes intensity it takes focus and just takes tracking a little when so you can keep your eye on the prize. And so a way basically what we found out we started is that our costs of living initially was probably close to 60000. And when we were able to implement some of these life hacks and smarter choices we were able to dramatically cut that cost living down into that we were able to live fairly comfortably and sustainably for around 35 to 38 35 to 40 grand a year and then just end it everything else went to student loans and we had some costs already baked in. But I did have high earning potential but I also had a high tax rate and if I was just able to to live an entry level middle class lifestyle it became very possible just to stay incredibly focused on those student loans paid off in a short amount of time.
college-loans, cordcutting, debt, families, fitness, frugalist, indexfunds, insurance, lifeoptimization, tax
1177 - 1187 Brad Barrett Yeah that's fascinating. Obviously the most important goal here was paying off the student loans. But were you saving otherwise were you did you have an emergency fund.
college-loans, emergencyfunds, savings
1187 - 1270 Jonathan Mendonsa Yeah this is actually interesting and I'm not saying that I have the right way of doing this but this is what I came up with. I have a pretty safe job. It's not going anywhere. And while initially I kept like a thousand or 2000 dollars in emergency fund because I was actually one of the things I was doing as I was paying ahead on these student loans and then what I would do after I was paid ahead I would call a company and say hey I'm paid ahead can you reduce my monthly payment. And so they continued to reduce that monthly auto payment down and because I was sending them so much more than what I was actually required to do I mean this is a 20 10 year or 20. It's a 10 year loan. I think I had I'd consolidate it down to a 10 year loan but I was paying it off in five years as what was my goal initially. And because I was I was paying so much more towards that. I found that I didn't really feel like I needed the emergency fund because I could very easily put it on a credit card if I need to. I'm not advising that but I'm saying that's what I did. I put it on a credit card if I need to I could very easily just stop making the extra payments because these were extra payments these were not to meet these or not to meet any amount that I had to meet or to pay my minimum bills I was paying far more than was necessary so I could easily just pay that credit card if I if I had to use that in between my pay period and so I guess things could have gone south but I also could have I had 10 years to pay these loans off I was paying them off in five and I did it closer to three. So because it was for a relatively short period of time I just kind of focused on that and it could have bit me in the butt but it didn't.
college-loans, emergencyfunds
1271 - 1275 Brad Barrett Right. You reduce the likelihood of that happening certainly with having a stable income.
1275 - 1290 Jonathan Mendonsa I am the credit cards I am very much looking forward to having a very very strong vibrant emergency fund but I am also very excited about these things being done in the next month or two. And so I'll probably pivot from getting these loans done to hiking back up that emergency fund maybe do you know a couple thousand dollars.
emergencyfunds
1290 - 1304 Brad Barrett It is so interesting though how people have different levels of safety. I think that's one thing you're going to do is the audience that they're going to learn about Jonathan and I or you know we are well we are similar in our ultimate goals. We are different in how we carry them out.
1304 - 1305 Jonathan Mendonsa Radically different.
1305 - 1339 Brad Barrett I'm sure. And I think as he says he's the reluctant frugal. I think I'm beyond frugal by nature. I'm also much more conservative than he is with money. So for me there's always that level of safety you like I could not sleep at night if I didn't have an emergency fund. Now you know I don't always term it an emergency fund an emergency fund but it's money sitting in a an account that I can access fairly quickly. And that's often to my detriment frankly I think you know like I mentioned earlier my wife is probably more frugal and more conservative financially than I am. So we keep way more in cash and cash equivalents than we should know.
emergencyfunds
1339 - 1359 Jonathan Mendonsa I can only advocate for Brad's plan and my wife would agree with Brad 100 percent she would like that. I you know and I don't even really I can't either. I'm really can't even convince you that I did that the right way but it worked but it worked. I'm here. Nothing went wrong. God willing and won't go wrong. So I'm very excited to be more like Brad going into 2017 have the emergency fund.
emergencyfunds
1359 - 1373 Brad Barrett All right. So here we are. Right here we are. You are going to have this crazy loan balance paid off in the next X number and you'll be at zero. You still have a boatload of money pouring in because obviously you've been using all this money to pay off these loans.
college-loans
1373 - 1374 Jonathan Mendonsa Yeah absolutely.
1374 - 1379 Brad Barrett Where do you go from here. Like what is it the emergency fund it is it is actually.
emergencyfunds
1379 - 1464 Jonathan Mendonsa Yeah it is absolutely so there's a couple things they're going to happen as soon as these loans are done I think you pivot next into trying to get three to five grand in an emergency fund. That's enough for our living expenses. You know if we've calculated that our living expenses are around 36000 a year with our 36000 to 40000 year with our with our mortgage included. That means that I probably need to have around $3000 a month. I'm probably going to just try to get to that three to six grand. You know put that aside and while I'm doing that I'm still building this blog and the podcast and some other stuff. And the amazing thing about trying to figure out when you start a business when do you just focus on getting an emergency fund build up. Well the cool thing is when you do something that's relatively low cost like a blog in a podcast you can do them concurrently even if you're not ready to actually launch something like that. You can start learning the skills to do it and so you need to always be learning. So this 2017 is a crazy exciting year for me it's the first year where now all of my energy is it's going to be actually put into not just something as boring as paying down student loans. I mean if you're in debt you know you need to pay it off and you need some motivation. Go to the site. I've got some great materials there to help you stay focused on getting it paid down. But it's also probably one of the most boring things in the world to do and once you're actually at that finish line and you can taste it. There are so many opportunities to open up for and I'm excited that you're going to get to experience that. And so that that is what I was pursuing and I think we're right there at the door with that.
college-loans, debt, emergencyfunds
1464 - 1488 Brad Barrett Nice. Yeah that's what's so cool about this podcast. You know we talk about and the website we talk about experiments and financial independence you're literally going to get to see what Jonathan does right. I mean you can do the math real quick right. I mean he probably has easily 50 grand a year. Right. That he paid off 168 K in three change years. We're talking 50 grand a year now that in 2017 he's going to have 50 grand that he's going to save approx.
1488 - 1490 Jonathan Mendonsa Yeah it was probably about right.
1490 - 1497 Brad Barrett So what is he going to do with that. I'm going to find this fascinating you know we talk about the fishbowl right. Like to me. I can't wait to see what he does.
1497 - 1544 Jonathan Mendonsa You're right. And we're going to just see what happens and we're going to share it with you I mean one of those things is going to be creating new streams of income. It's going to be creating something like the blog and the podcast and seeing where that goes. And you can do that because you have you're starting from this platform now of freedom. You don't owe the bank anything anymore. You're debt free so now it's let your creativity go wild and see what you want to do. And you know what. Even if you if you mess up in one of your projects tanks it's probably not going to cost you 168 thousand dollars. You have some room to experiment makes a mistake learn from it like Brad in a prior episode and go for the new project so you know I mean listen to the podcast The three hour car flip. Fantastic. Lots of fun to listen to. I'm going to try something simple like that. We're going to try. We're going to practice what we preach and do the vanguard.
debt
1544 - 1545 Brad Barrett VTSAX.
indexfunds
1545 - 1584 Jonathan Mendonsa Can't put those letters together I know what they are just can't put them together and we're going to do that when we're to maybe do a fund drive a lending club and we're going to. My goal is to have five passive streams of income. They don't have to be a lot. They don't have to be something crazy but actually be able to have a monthly statement that shows five different streams of income that are passive that that they're taking care of themself moving out of 2017 and 2018 and so we're going to build this out and we're going to share what we're doing how it works what steps you can take we're going to find people that have already done it and we're going to bring them on the show. We're going to learn from them and we're to share all of that with you. It's absolutely going to be an amazing year for ChooseFI.
followup
1584 - 1599 Brad Barrett Yeah we are beyond excited. We're so glad you're here. And yeah hopefully this was a good introduction to Jonathan where he's been what he's done and where he's going and I'm excited to see to see what he does and I hope you're too. So yeah. Thank you for listening.
1599 - 1613 Jonathan Mendonsa If you want to get a copy of the Excel sheet that I use to pay down $160000 in student loan debt. Go to choose F-I dot com forward slash 0 0 4. You can get the Excel file as well as the show notes from today's episode.
college-loans, debt

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